[O'Shaughnessy]

Yes indeed we can imagine how Ponselle would sing the rest of it. I prefer Ponselle's recorded material over Callas' recorded material. Callas was a great artist but she wasn't better than everyone else at everything all the time. I don't give Callas hegemony over anything.

 

[PHOENIXFIRERAPTOR]

Maybe I should have made it clear that I was talking about recordings of the complete opera, though I thought I’d done so. We do not have any complete recording of Ponselle singing Norma, as much as I would love to hear one. We do have several recordings featuring Callas, probably more than any other singer.
We have a weekly BBC radio programme over here called Building a Library. In it an eminent critic, or sometimes a panel or critics will have listened to all the available recordings of a work and, giving aural examples, will eventually recommend the best recording of the work. Since I’ve been following it, Norma has been the subject three times, with different critics making a choice each time. It concentrates primarily on easily available commercial recordings, so what we used to call pirated recordings are not included. On each occasion the critic eventually narrowed their choice down to the same two recordings before making a final choice. The two recordings they narrowed it down to were Callas 1954 and Callas 1960. They did not bring imaginary recordings into it. That is what I meant about her hegemony in the role.

Yes I understood you were talking about complete opera recordings but I specifically stated that I preferred all of Ponselle's recorded work to Callas'. I'm not cowed by the opinion of any critic regardless of how eminent they are. I don't give a hoot about most critics today considering how they fawn over obviously damaged raggedy voices and bland so called artistry. Callas doesn't have hegemony in the entire world of opera just because a panel of critics happens to pick her as their personal favorite. I pick Ponselle FOR THE RECORDINGS OF HER THAT EXIST. I now understand that you mean Callas has hegemony at a particular BBC radio network program. That is fine and good. I am very comfortable with that. What I specify and took issue with is that the hegemony statement doesn't apply to me and the many others that prefer Ponselle; thus my response. We will just have to agree to disagree about who sang better in what Ponselle recorded.

 

[Seattleoperafan]

I would like to hear both, please . Some of you guys and gals are so clever. Please invent a time machine for me!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[48589]

I do not understand the need to establish supremacy of one great singer versus another great singer when our reaction is really based on personal taste, and the well worn kunst und stimme paradox.

On the stimme side, I find Ms. Callas sound intoxicatingly beautiful even though I recognize the superior beauty of Ms. Ponselle's voice. The intoxication of Ms. Callas sound is because of the variety of colors and humanity they transmit to me. Ms. Ponselle's more conventionally beautiful voice, sounds less varied in color to me but I love the incredible richness of the sound.

On the Kunst side, they both offered supreme musicianship and expressive qualities which were unique in different ways. They never sound affected or calculated, both masters of the art that conceals art.

I cherish them both, my life is enriched by both of them, as it is by many other singers. Their greatness should be cause of gratitude and not be the source of endless arguments which are based on the need to define a winner.

 

[Woodduck]

I do not understand the need to establish supremacy of one great singer versus another great singer when our reaction is really based on personal taste, and the well worn kunst und stimme paradox.

On the stimme side, I find Ms. Callas sound intoxicatingly beautiful even though I recognize the superior beauty of Ms. Ponselle's voice. The intoxication of Ms. Callas sound is because of the variety of colors and humanity they transmit to me. Ms. Ponselle's more conventionally beautiful voice, sounds less varied in color to me but I love the incredible richness of the sound.

On the Kunst side, they both offered supreme musicianship and expressive qualities which were unique in different ways. They never sound affected or calculated, both masters of the art that conceals art.

I cherish them both, my life is enriched by both of them, as it is by many other singers. Their greatness should be cause of gratitude and not be the source of endless arguments which are based on the need to define a winner.

Yes. And useless competitions are even more absurd when we claim to know how they'd be adjudicated by other people.

 

[Tsaraslondon]

I do not understand the need to establish supremacy of one great singer versus another great singer when our reaction is really based on personal taste, and the well worn kunst und stimme paradox.

On the stimme side, I find Ms. Callas sound intoxicatingly beautiful even though I recognize the superior beauty of Ms. Ponselle's voice. The intoxication of Ms. Callas sound is because of the variety of colors and humanity they transmit to me. Ms. Ponselle's more conventionally beautiful voice, sounds less varied in color to me but I love the incredible richness of the sound.

On the Kunst side, they both offered supreme musicianship and expressive qualities which were unique in different ways. They never sound affected or calculated, both masters of the art that conceals art.

I cherish them both, my life is enriched by both of them, as it is by many other singers. Their greatness should be cause of gratitude and not be the source of endless arguments which are based on the need to define a winner.

I actually agree with you. My main point is that we can only imagine what Ponselle was like in the whole role because we unfortunately only have excerpts, whereas we know what Callas was like in it because we are fortunate enough to have many recordings of her in it.

 

[Seattleoperafan]

I do not understand the need to establish supremacy of one great singer versus another great singer when our reaction is really based on personal taste, and the well worn kunst und stimme paradox.

On the stimme side, I find Ms. Callas sound intoxicatingly beautiful even though I recognize the superior beauty of Ms. Ponselle's voice. The intoxication of Ms. Callas sound is because of the variety of colors and humanity they transmit to me. Ms. Ponselle's more conventionally beautiful voice, sounds less varied in color to me but I love the incredible richness of the sound.

On the Kunst side, they both offered supreme musicianship and expressive qualities which were unique in different ways. They never sound affected or calculated, both masters of the art that conceals art.

I cherish them both, my life is enriched by both of them, as it is by many other singers. Their greatness should be cause of gratitude and not be the source of endless arguments which are based on the need to define a winner.

Said so well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So nice to have you as one of our friends here on the site!!!

 

[Woodduck]

Yes we can indeed deduce (to draw a logical conclusion) everything I have stated quite easily since Verdi himself quite clearly stated as I quoted above:

So I am quite certain the it would definitely be Verdi's opinion that he would choose Callas quite easily to sing Lady Macbeth because of her vocal qualities and his musical demands of the role, and llikewise he would then choose Ponselle over Callas for Leonora because of her vocal qualities and his musical demands of that role. If we could indeed resurrect Verdi from the dead and ask him, I have no doubt he would agree. That is how certain I am. Art is full of intangibles, but we are dealing with tangible evidence of exactly what Verdi thought about a particular voice type he preferred for a certain role.

What Verdi said about Tadolini and Macbeth cannot tell us whether he would have preferred Ponselle or Callas for Forza. Your fantasy that it can is just that - a fantasy - and at root clearly a projection of your own tastes. To speak for Verdi's tastes and artistic judgments is sheer presumption.

I think 3rd parties can definitely predict the impact on any person of an artist's work if the party knows the artist's work, has access to the artist's opinions about what he/she wants, and is also familiar with the person they are making the prediction for.

How well you know the person you are presuming to speak for is quite critical here. You don't know Verdi, and Verdi, never having heard or seen Callas or Ponselle, had no opinion of them. Your "definite" conclusions are guesswork based on insufficient evidence.

I can tell you with absolute certainly how my mother was impacted by Verdi's work, or Puccini's work, or any number of composers and that goes for singers, conductors, etc. I could tell you in great detail how they made her feel and the behaviors they would produce in her upon auditory stimuli of their work. There is nothing wrong with stating that. Although my mother is dead I could tell you in great detail exactly how she would be impacted by XYZ singer, conductor, composer of today that she did not hear when she was alive, because I know her preferences so very well. There is nothing wrong with deducing that. I don't see any point in anyone muzzling their own personal opinions regarding these matters or we wouldn't have a forum in which to discuss anything.

This is just terrific. I can imagine you, as a member of a jury, arguing that you know for sure what the defendant would have thought and done because - wait for it! - you know your mother.

"I'll retire to Bedlam." (Ebenezer Scrooge)

 

[ewilkros]

Please invent a time machine for me!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ehnh, you'd just use it to go hear the Walkure with Flagstad, Traubel and Melchior in Chicago, 1937

 

[MAS]

Ehnh, you'd just use it to go hear the Walkure with Flagstad, Traubel and Melchior in Chicago, 1937

Heavy hitters, eh? I can’t imagine either Flagstad or Traubel as Sieglinde!

Wait a minute! I think I have a recording of Act I of Die Walküre with Flagstad!

 

[PHOENIXFIRERAPTOR]

What Verdi said about Tadolini and Macbeth cannot tell us whether he would have preferred Ponselle or Callas for Forza. Your fantasy that it can is just that - a fantasy - and at root clearly a projection of your own tastes. To speak for Verdi's tastes and artistic judgments is sheer presumption.

It is a well educated guess based on what we know of Verdi's preferred voice type for Lady Macbeth as he wrote it down, and familiarity with recorded historical audio material of Callas and Ponselle. So the presumption isn't, "sheer," or based upon nothing as you quite clearly seem to be suggesting.

How well you know the person you are presuming to speak for is quite critical here. You don't know Verdi, and Verdi, never having heard or seen Callas or Ponselle, had no opinion of them. Your "definite" conclusions are guesswork based on insufficient evidence.

We know clearly what Verdi wanted based upon his written historically documented statements as to the voice type he preferred for Lady Macbeth. This much we know very clearly. I know clearly how Ponselle and Callas would sing audition material type arias and excerpts for those operas due to their historical recorded legacy. My definite conclusions are therefore educated, sufficient evidence remains to support it, and logically deducted reasoning stands behind it.

This is just terrific. I can imagine you, as a member of a jury, arguing that you know for sure what the defendant would have thought and done because - wait for it! - you know your mother.

Yes indeed I could with great confidence, argue that I know with certainty what the defendant (Verdi) would have picked as his choice for Leonora or Lady Macbeth based upon historical documentation of all 3 parties and the knowledge of singing styles and voices of the Callas and Ponselle. The parallel with my mother stands in equity and I could also pick her preferred casting choices for those operas as well, even though she left no clearly written specific statement on the matter of vocal preference, as Verdi did. I stand quite comfortably in my previous statements which you have not, in spite of your condescending tone, been successful at refuting.

"I'll retire to Bedlam." (Ebenezer Scrooge)

Cheers to that I await your response!

 

[Woodduck]

Yes indeed I could with great confidence, argue that I know with certainty what the defendant (Verdi) would have picked as his choice for Leonora or Lady Macbeth based upon historical documentation of all 3 parties and the knowledge of singing styles and voices of the Callas and Ponselle. The parallel with my mother stands in equity and I could also pick her preferred casting choices for those operas as well, even though she left no clearly written specific statement on the matter of vocal preference, as Verdi did. I stand quite comfortably in my previous statements which you have not, in spite of your condescending tone, been successful at refuting.

Still at it, are you? Sigh...

Since you're clearly incapable of seeing the glaring flaw in your argument and must continue to justify and rationalize your own biases as Verdi's while failing to understand the elementary fallacy of confusing opinion with truth, I'm going to leave you "standing quite comfortably" with your mother. Maybe she can succeed where others can't, and convince you that Giuseppe Verdi is too dead to have an opinion about Maria Callas or Rosa Ponselle. Meanwhile, I won't try to fathom what level of egotism, or maybe intoxication, is necessary for a person to claim to know the opinions of people too dead to have them.

Goodbye.

 

[Woodduck]

Heavy hitters, eh? I can’t imagine either Flagstad or Traubel as Sieglinde!

Wait a minute! I think I have a recording of Act I of Die Walküre with Flagstad!

Flagstad's Met debut role was Sieglinde. She loved the part and would have sung it more often, but once she had sung Brunnhilde she was stuck with her.

 

[ewilkros]

Heavy hitters, eh? I can’t imagine either Flagstad or Traubel as Sieglinde!

Wait a minute! I think I have a recording of Act I of Die Walküre with Flagstad!

The Dec 3, 1937 Chicago Walküre with Flagstad as Brunnhilde and Traubel as Sieglinde was Traubel's first performance in a "standard" role onstage, previous one having been Walter Damrosch's Man Without a Country, which he wrote a "leading lady" part into so he could include Traubel; they did it earlier in 1937 at the Met and Chicago; here's the Met broadcast in a fiddled-with transfer:

I figured John couldn't resist the joint appearance of a couple of his faves, with Traubel 38 and Flagstad 42.

Traubel did 7 Sieglindes at the Met between Dec 1939 and Dec 1940, some with Lawrence and some with Flagstad; critical reaction was largely "when do we get to hear her do Brünnhilde?" Traubel did her first Brünnhilde on any stage on the Dec 6 1941 Walküre broadcast, something which tends to be forgotten as it was the same performance as Astrid Varnay's surprise debut as Sieglinde.

Flagstad of course made her surprise debut as Sieglinde, and knocked the world on its ear:

Spoiler: Flagstad - 1935 debut

Flagstad apparently liked the role of Sieglinde; she re-did it at the Met, including a 1937 broadcast with Marjorie Lawrence's Brünnhilde, and she was apparently the instigator of the 1957 (?) recording of Act I for Decca.

 

[MAS]

The Dec 3, 1937 Chicago Walküre with Flagstad as Brunnhilde and Traubel as Sieglinde was Traubel's first performance in a "standard" role onstage, previous one having been Walter Damrosch's Man Without a Country, which he wrote a "leading lady" part into so he could include Traubel; they did it earlier in 1937 at the Met and Chicago; here's the Met broadcast in a fiddled-with transfer:

I figured John couldn't resist the joint appearance of a couple of his faves, with Traubel 38 and Flagstad 42.

Traubel did 7 Sieglindes at the Met between Dec 1939 and Dec 1940, some with Lawrence and some with Flagstad; critical reaction was largely "when do we get to hear her do Brünnhilde?" Traubel did her first Brünnhilde on any stage on the Dec 6 1941 Walküre broadcast, something which tends to be forgotten as it was the same performance as Astrid Varnay's surprise debut as Sieglinde.

Flagstad of course made her surprise debut as Sieglinde, and knocked the world on its ear:

Spoiler: Flagstad - 1935 debut

Flagstad apparently liked the role of Sieglinde; she re-did it at the Met, including a 1937 broadcast with Marjorie Lawrence's Brünnhilde, and she was apparently the instigator of the 1957 (?) recording of Act I for Decca.

Yes, that’s the recording I have, coupled with Act III.

 

[O'Shaughnessy]

Mas is the only person besides me who loves Horne. Love Callas and Hate Horne... that is the mantra for most people here LOL.

That's how it is in Thailand also...

"Love Callas and Hate Horne - Love Callas and Hate Horne - Love Callas and Hate Horne - Love Callas and Hate Horne - Love Callas and Hate Horne - Love Callas and Hate Horne - Love Callas and Hate Horne..."

 

[Seattleoperafan]

Flagstad's Met debut role was Sieglinde. She loved the part and would have sung it more often, but once she had sung Brunnhilde she was stuck with her.

She was incredible at Der Manner Sippe with those low notes and I don't think the part goes higher than an A5. It could be sung by a mezzo but it is not the right sound for the part.

 

[Woodduck]

She was incredible at Der Manner Sippe with those low notes and I don't think the part goes higher than an A5. It could be sung by a mezzo but it is not the right sound for the part.

That's how I feel about both Jessye Norman and Helen Traubel in the role. Hunding could never have carried off those mamas. One of them was six feet tall and the other was six feet wide. Vocally, I mean.

 

[PHOENIXFIRERAPTOR]

Still at it, are you? Sigh...

Since you're clearly incapable of seeing the glaring flaw in your argument and must continue to justify and rationalize your own biases as Verdi's while failing to understand the elementary fallacy of confusing opinion with truth, I'm going to leave you "standing quite comfortably" with your mother. Maybe she can succeed where others can't, and convince you that Giuseppe Verdi is too dead to have an opinion about Maria Callas or Rosa Ponselle. Meanwhile, I won't try to fathom what level of egotism, or maybe intoxication, is necessary for a person to claim to know the opinions of people too dead to have them.

Goodbye.

Yes. And useless competitions are even more absurd when we claim to know how they'd be adjudicated by other people.

But we can make educated guesses within all the absurdity of it! The level of certainty

Your insight into the mind of Giuseppe Verdi is apparently far more profound than mine. To know his mind "definitely," and to have "no doubt" that you do, is quite an achievement for someone who, at this cultural and chronological distance, can never know Verdi or speak to him.

If you can cite some documented opinions of Verdi's that would justify such certainties, I would be happy to know of them. Without those, we can legitimately speak only for ourselves, not for the composers to whose opinions of their own works we might wish to defer.

Speaking only for myself, and based on my own experience of the singers in question, I would say, with the highest respect for the vocal and musical accomplishments of Rosa Ponselle, that I find no demonstration that any assumption of any role by Ponselle can equal, and probably even approach, the astonishing musical and dramatic achievements of Maria Callas, her "vocal horrors" notwithstanding. You may disagree. Verdi is unable to vote at this time.

Still at it, are you? Sigh...

Since you're clearly incapable of seeing the glaring flaw in your argument and must continue to justify and rationalize your own biases as Verdi's while failing to understand the elementary fallacy of confusing opinion with truth, I'm going to leave you "standing quite comfortably" with your mother. Maybe she can succeed where others can't, and convince you that Giuseppe Verdi is too dead to have an opinion about Maria Callas or Rosa Ponselle. Meanwhile, I won't try to fathom what level of egotism, or maybe intoxication, is necessary for a person to claim to know the opinions of people too dead to have them.

Goodbye.

You know how highly I regard Tadolini, and she herself knows it; but I believe it's necessary — for the interest of all concerned — to make a few observations. Tadolini's qualities are far too good for that role! This may seem absurd to you!! ... Tadolini has a beautiful and attractive appearance; and I would like Lady Macbeth to be ugly and evil. Tadolini sings to perfection; and I would like the Lady not to sing. Tadolini has a stupendous voice, clear, limpid, powerful; and I would like the Lady to have a harsh, stifled, and hollow voice. Tadolini's voice has an angelic quality; I would like the Lady's voice to be diabolical.

WOODDUCK said: Non sequitur. first of all, you're simplifying and caricaturing the unusual, complex timbre of Callas as "diabolical, harsh, and somber." Maybe that's all you hear in it. I hear much more. I hear a voice that could be adapted, by the singer's incomparable inagination, to an immense variety of operatic characters, a voice that could alter its color like a chameleon, to a degree I've not encountered in any other singer. Medea, Lucia, Santuzza, Butterfly, Mimi, Gilda, Carmen...?

Yes, of course Verdi would be happy to have a voice like Ponselle's singing his music. Who wouldn't? All other things being equal, he would not inconceivably choose her for a number of roles. But all other things are not equal. In fact, they are far from equal. They are unequal enough to toss into the trash any presumption about which of the singers in question he would choose for Leonora.

PHOENIXFIRERAPTOR said: IF they were auditioning for Giuseppe Verdi himself, I have no doubt that Verdi would have chosen Ponselle.

First of all there is nothing wrong with stating the timbre of Callas' voice is diabolical, harsh, and somber. I don't see that descriptive as a simplification or a caricature but for some reason you have taken great offense to it. This innate timbre didn't change no matter what she sang which is why we can always recognize Callas distinctly in any recording. Her phrasing changed to adjust and express the drama as she best thought, and she could spread the sound or narrow it, but her basic vocal sound never changed. That sound was diabolical, harsh, and somber whether she sang GILDA and MIMI or LADY MACBETH and ABIGAILLE. We can easily hear that it's Callas singing whether it's O don Fatale or O mio babbino caro. Sure we can list all the roles she sang or just recorded, but many were not suited to her voice at all regardless of how much she tried to spread the sound or narrow it to accomodate character/music/phrasing.

We aren't discussing ALL of Verdi's music here. We are discussing Macbeth and Forza specifically. I don't think Verdi would have been happy to have a voice like Ponselle's singing Lady Macbeth at all based upon his written statements, for the same reason he didn't want Tadolini. For this observation and his vocal writing in Forza which requires beautifully floated passages and limpid piannissimo of an angelic character type, I am sure he would pick Ponselle. The equity of all other things is a pointless statement since we aren't discussing the equity of all other things. It indicates nothing and serves only to toss into the trash anything I or anyone else would say, which is in and of itself, pointless. We are discussing a specific statement made by Verdi at at specific time about a specific voice type, as well as two very specific and distinctly difference opera singers with distinctly different voices, and two specific roles; Lady Macbeth and Leonora from FORZA. Based on those parameters of that information only; I stated I was sure that Verdi would pick Ponselle for FORZA and Callas for LADY MACBETH. Is it an educated guess? Of course. Is it my opinion, of course; and my logical reasoning isn't refuted by your wish to obfuscate the matter by introducing ridicule and insistence on mind reading and channeling the dead. That only serves to support the validity of my statement like white flag of surrender. That is my truth and those are the literal facts. They may not be yours, but that doesn't in any way refute the logic of my educated guesses WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF THE INFORMATION SPECIFIED.

I find it patently ludicrous that you find the need to imagine this as a jury trial in which I have been caricatured as a hostile witness purely attacking Callas. Is that what this is now?

Of course Verdi never heard them in reality, I said: IF they were auditioning for Giuseppe Verdi himself, I have no doubt that Verdi would have chosen Ponselle. Notice the word IF. The word IF is clearly written and you seem to be dismissive of it. With this word, "IF," I am saying that I know neither of the two sopranos ever sang for him, so of course I know he could have no literal opinion of them, however, the educated guess I made regarding his choices IF he did, is perfectly logical WITHIN THE PARAMETERS OF THE SPECIFIED INFORMATION.

I find it pointedly interesting that you have descended to an ad hominem attack against me, mentioning that there is something wrong with my ego or that I am a drunk who claims to know the opinions of dead people. The overtly hostile and condescending statement says it all. I take the ad hominem attack as a white flag of surrender in this court room and bid you a polite adieu.

 

[PHOENIXFIRERAPTOR]

She soars here and in Casta Diva. She was a freak with over 3 octave range. Her low voice was just as much a part of her voice as her high voice. You don't like Horne because you belong to Talk Classical Opera where Mas is the only person besides me who loves Horne. Love Callas and Hate Horne... that is the mantra for most people here LOL.

Oh I LOVE Horne! Her voix mixte throughout the passaggios was like butter! She never aspirated her scalework it was exemplary. The top was ungodly fabulous for a mezzo. That stentorian sound make everything she sang sound so magnificently grand! Her sound was a like a string of pearls from top to bottom which is a highly unusual achievement, especially for a mezzo with a long voice. I am always in awe when I hear her. I actually love Callas for lots of things too, the phrasing was always superior. I find it easy to love both of them. 🌞