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Who sings this the best?

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Since every one seems to have already voted on the Samson aria I think we have time for a small contest before Shaughnessy posts on Sunday
Georges Thill sings the famous aria from Wagner's opera Lohengrin: "In Fernem Land" translated in french "Aux bords lointains". Recorded in 1931
Aux bords lointains (Lohengrin) · Paul Franz Lebendige Vergangenheit - Paul Franz
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
It sounds much more belcanto in French to me.

English translation
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Far and Away (Grail Telling)
Far and away, unapproachable to your steps
There is a castle called Montsalvat;
In the middle there stands a luminous temple,
As precious as nothing else on earth is known.

A vessel of miracoulos blessing
Is guarded inside as supreme sanctuary.
It has been brought down by a host of angels,
To be cared for by the purest human beings.

Annually a dove from above approaches
To reinforce its miraculous power;
Its name is Sangrail, and it grants blissfully purest believe
To its knighthood.

Who is predestined to serve the Sangrail
It prepares with supernal power;
Every evil's deception is lost to him,
When he sees it, death's power vanishes;

Even to him who is sent by it to alien lands,
Appointed as fighter for virtue's justice,
His holy power will not be taken away,
If he goes unrecognized there as its knight.

May the Sangrail's blessing be ever of so noble cast,
It must flee the layman's eyes when it is unveiled.
Therefore you shall not doubt the knight,
If you recognize him - he has to leave you.

Now listen, how I reward the forbidden question:
By the Sangrail I was sent to you:
My father Parzival wears its crown,
His knight, I - am called Lohengrin
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Wagner doesn't sound bad in French, although key words inevitably get displaced from the positions where the composer carefully set them. Lohengrin's mention of the dove - Taube - is a lovely moment a tenor can make poetry with, but that's entirely lost when colombe is moved out of its musical place.

Neither of these performances exhibits any poetry, for me an essential quality in a knight of the Grail, but both are splendidly vocalized and are quite similar. I thought Franz was a little rushed, possibly in anticipation of running over the permissible record side timing. It's a tough choice, but I think I'll pick Thill in recognition of the stunning ease with which he sings everything. I could change my mind if I listened again, but that'll do for now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Wagner doesn't sound bad in French, although key words inevitably get displaced from the positions where the composer carefully set them. Lohengrin's mention of the dove - Taube - is a lovely moment a tenor can make poetry with, but that's entirely lost when colombe is moved out of its musical place.

Neither of these performances exhibits any poetry, for me an essential quality in a knight of the Grail, but both are splendidly vocalized and are quite similar. I thought Franz was a little rushed, possibly in anticipation of running over the permissible record side timing. It's a tough choice, but I think I'll pick Thill in recognition of the stunning ease with which he sings everything. I could change my mind if I listened again, but that'll do for now.
You hear so many things I miss but I knew we had some solid vocals here. I really love Thill's voice.
 

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I never thought I’d miss the German language, but here I do. The French does nothing for me, or for Lohengrin, which is my favorite opera of Wagner (no rats, please). Franz, for some reason seems to go on and on, an impression I don’t get from my man Thill.
Wagner loses something in French, but not as much as he loses in Italian, a language that scans so differently from German that notes often have to be added to accommodate it. Wagner in Italian may be worse than Verdi in German, or maybe not. I'll do without both unless it's Callas singing Kundry or Isolde (of which we'll never hear more than eight minutes) or Joseph Schwarz singing Rigoletto.
 

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I have Les introuvables du chant Wagnérien on CD, a treasure trove of mostly inter-war years Wagnerian singers. There are some great French singers, singing in French on that set; Germaine Lubin, Thill, Arthur Endrèze and Marcel Journet are some of the names who come to mind, and Marjorie Lawrence, who spent a good part of her career in France, also sings Wagner in French on this set. So I've become more used to hearing Wagner in French, even if it's not ideal. I agree that it sounds better in French than in Italian .

Having said that, I'm finding it very hard to choose a favourite out of these two who both sing it well, if without quite the slightly mystic quality I would like. I always think Wunderlich, had he lived long enough to progress to Wagner, might have had the ideal voice, but we were denied that tantalising prospect. I think I'll go for Thill, but really there's very little in it.
 

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I agree. He only sang the role once on stage though, in Stockholm in 1966. He was also supposed to sing it at Bayreuth the following year, but I'm sure I read somewhere that he decided the role wasn't for him and never attempted it again.
 

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I agree. He only sang the role once on stage though, in Stockholm in 1966. He was also supposed to sing it at Bayreuth the following year, but I'm sure I read somewhere that he decided the role wasn't for him and never attempted it again.
I have that recording but have yet to listen to it. And you are correct that he decided not to sing any more Wagner. I’m sure I read that he was only due to sing one performance in 1966 but some conflicting info suggests he sang all the performances in that season. Perhaps someone can shed some further light. 😎
 
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Franz has some steady, solid points; Thill is resourceful and unique, as usual. I'd agree with Woodduck that there isn't much POETRY in either, but maybe the vocal writing doesn't allow for much. ... Volker, from 1927 or Bayreuth/1936 is very, darn GOOD, and thanks to Barbebleu for the Gedda version! Well, if you want BOTH strength and exceptional vocalism, plus a bit of poetry, one need go no further than the surpassing Melchior, especially 1943 (Met, w/Leinsdorf).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Franz has some steady, solid points; Thill is resourceful and unique, as usual. I'd agree with Woodduck that there isn't much POETRY in either, but maybe the vocal writing doesn't allow for much. ... Volker, from 1927 or Bayreuth/1936 is very, darn GOOD, and thanks to Barbebleu for the Gedda version! Well, if you want BOTH strength and exceptional vocalism, plus a bit of poetry, one need go no further than the surpassing Melchior, especially 1943 (Met, w/Leinsdorf).
You'll like the final round of singers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The poetry is in the words and intention of the singer - it’s a mystical story and the singers have to be “in” on it, as has the conductor. After all, it has to do with the Holy Grail land faith, and Lohengrin has to be in a sort of trance during most of his singing.
We did a great traditional version here and it was one of the great operatic events of my life. Even if you don't like The Ring and Tristan you might really enjoy Lohengrin. It is more Bel Canto in my opinion and it has the most thrilling choruses I've ever heard in an opera. You can hear more the Italianate influence with the French language.
 

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We did a great traditional version here and it was one of the great operatic events of my life. Even if you don't like The Ring and Tristan you might really enjoy Lohengrin. It is more Bel Canto in my opinion and it has the most thrilling choruses I've ever heard in an opera. You can hear more the Italianate influence with the French language.
It’s one of Wagner’s “operas,” rather than “music dramas,” with its great choruses, especially hard on the tenors in the chorus, but just gorgeous. We also had a traditional staging, the first Act really looked like it was in a forest, and the lighting design was spectacular (his name was Thomas Munn, never had better lighting than when he was part of the company).
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
It’s one of Wagner’s “operas,” rather than “music dramas,” with its great choruses, especially hard on the tenors in the chorus, but just gorgeous. We also had a traditional staging, the first Act really looked like it was in a forest, and the lighting design was spectacular (his name was Thomas Munn, never had better lighting than when he was part of the company).
Lighting can really be a very key part of the staging. Didn't you guys tend towards more traditional rather than avant-guard settings for operas.
 

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Lighting can really be a very key part of the staging. Didn't you guys tend towards more traditional rather than avant-guard settings for operas.
Thankfully, yes. Our two General Directors during my time were Kurt Herbert Adler, and Terry McEwen, who were traditionalists, that God, didn’t put up with nonsense from stage directors. The most controversial productions were the Jean-Pierre Ponnelle ones, which were apt to be early régie. His Die Fliegende Hollander was severely criticized in New York when the production was transferred to the Metropolitan Opera. Adler would even object if a singer‘s train was too long, or if a set director used too much forced perspective.
 

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It’s one of Wagner’s “operas,” rather than “music dramas,” with its great choruses, especially hard on the tenors in the chorus, but just gorgeous. We also had a traditional staging, the first Act really looked like it was in a forest, and the lighting design was spectacular (his name was Thomas Munn, never had better lighting than when he was part of the company).
I've always thought of Lohengrin as Wagner's "fairy tale" opera: innocent maiden unjustly accused, evil witch who tries to destroy her, young boy turned into a swan, knight in shining armor who longs to experience human love... Most of Wagner's dramas are psychologically complex and even disturbing, but the tale of Lohengrin is great bedtime reading that will give the child in us happy thrills and not keep us awake. A production ought to be beautiful to look at and listen to, but still needs to give full weight to the story's gentle pathos. A lot rests on the tenor portraying the Grail knight, who should be both heroic and poetic - two seemingly opposite qualities rare enough in tenors, and rarer found together in one singer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I've always thought of Lohengrin as Wagner's "fairy tale" opera: innocent maiden unjustly accused, evil witch who tries to destroy her, young boy turned into a swan, knight in shining armor who longs to experience human love... Most of Wagner's dramas are psychologically complex and even disturbing, but the tale of Lohengrin is great bedtime reading that will give the child in us happy thrills and not keep us awake. A production ought to be beautiful to look at and listen to, but still needs to give full weight to the story's gentle pathos. A lot rests on the tenor portraying the Grail knight, who should be both heroic and poetic - two seemingly opposite qualities rare enough in tenors, and rarer found together in one singer.
Most of the fiction I like are sort of fairy tale/ supernatural quest sort of things. I've read Proust, Joyce and Faulkner but now that I am old give me Harry Potter or some sword and sorcery stuff. Preteen in an old man's body. Most opera plots bore me but I like Wagner's plots.
 
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