[Woodduck]

Most of the fiction I like are sort of fairy tale/ supernatural quest sort of things. I've read Proust, Joyce and Faulkner but now that I am old give me Harry Potter or some sword and sorcery stuff. Preteen in an old man's body. Most opera plots bore me but I like Wagner's plots.

I love his plots. One of the appeals of his mythical tales is that they work on different levels. You can enjoy them as fantasy; story books of "Wagner for children" were popular a century ago (a little bit cleaned up, of course - no incest or other risque stuff). But then you can probe the symbolism for psychological archetypes and religious or political implications. Wagner was a great storyteller; he knew how to pare the old myths and legends, often full of entertaining busyness and picturesque characters in their earlier tellings, down to essentials. Reading Chretien de Troyes, Wolfram von Eschenbach and Gottfried von Strassburg makes you realize how brilliantly compressed and structured Wagner's Parsifal and Tristan are, with their plots reduced to a few crucial scenes. With many operas, I have trouble remembering what happens when (or, to be honest, caring). With Wagner there's an inexorable logic to the sequence of events, the few essential characters are unique and memorable, and there's a meaning to it all. People like to say "everything happens for a reason," meaning that life is the working out of some higher plan. I don't believe that of real life, but it's always true of Wagner, down to the last dramatic detail. It's one reason regietheater directors screwing around with his operas are so offensive, and it's why I've always longed for great filmic treatments of them that could reveal, in a way impossible onstage, the full reach of his imagination. I'm convinced that great films of Wagner's operas would blow people's minds and win a lot of new friends for opera.

 

[ColdGenius]

Once upon a time a saw a schoolgirl taken to the opera by her grandmother. Perhaps she told her it was a fairytale about a princess and they would eat eclairs in an intermission. They left after first act. 😜
Mariinski production of Lohengrin is beautiful and fairytale-like.

 

[Woodduck]

Once upon a time a saw a schoolgirl taken to the opera by her grandmother. Perhaps she told her it was a fairytale about a princess and they would eat eclairs in an intermission. They left after first act. 😜
Mariinski production of Lohengrin is beautiful and fairytale-like.
View attachment 184433

Beautiful lighting, with ideal colors for the opera: blue, white and gold.

 

[MAS]

I love his plots. One of the appeals of his mythical tales is that they work on different levels. You can enjoy them as fantasy; story books of "Wagner for children" were popular a century ago (a little bit cleaned up, of course - no incest or other risque stuff). But then you can probe the symbolism for psychological archetypes and religious or political implications. Wagner was a great storyteller; he knew how to pare the old myths and legends, often full of entertaining busyness and picturesque characters in their earlier tellings, down to essentials. Reading Chretien de Troyes, Wolfram von Eschenbach and Gottfried von Strassburg makes you realize how brilliantly compressed and structured Wagner's Parsifal and Tristan are, with their plots reduced to a few crucial scenes. With many operas, I have trouble remembering what happens when (or, to be honest, caring). With Wagner there's an inexorable logic to the sequence of events, the few essential characters are unique and memorable, and there's a meaning to it all. People like to say "everything happens for a reason," meaning that life is the working out of some higher plan. I don't believe that of real life, but it's always true of Wagner, down to the last dramatic detail. It's one reason regietheater directors screwing around with his operas are so offensive, and it's why I've always longed for great filmic treatments of them that could reveal, in a way impossible onstage, the full reach of his imagination. I'm convinced that great films of Wagner's operas would blow people's minds and win a lot of new friends for opera.

Ive had this “dream” of making films of Der Ring des Nibelungen in full realistic style, with locations and costumes following the Nordic legends - though at times I want to use a pre-Raphaelite style.
Incidentally, have you seen the film Die Nibelungen by Fritz Lang? It’s quite beautifully and imaginatively done. Though the dragon is like a komodo dragon.

 

[ewilkros]

With Wagner there's an inexorable logic to the sequence of events...

And all the operas have backstories, and you can imagine sequels to all of them!

 

[Woodduck]

Ive had this “dream” of making films of Der Ring des Nibelungen in full realistic style, with locations and costumes following the Nordic legends - though at times I want to use a pre-Raphaelite style.
Incidentally, have you seen the film Die Nibelungen by Fritz Lang? It’s quite beautifully and imaginatively done. Though the dragon is like a komodo dragon.

Lang's film is indeed beautiful.

 

[Woodduck]

And all the operas have backstories, and you can imagine sequels to all of them!

I suspect we're living in the sequel to the Ring. Things haven't worked out as well as Brunnhilde may have hoped, but I guess we have to go on trying.

 

[ewilkros]

I suspect we're living in the sequel to the Ring. Things haven't worked out as well as Brunnhilde may have hoped, but I guess we have to go on trying.

At one point the Marvel "Thor" comics flashed back to setting up their continuity as a sequel/reboot to Wagner's Ring, maybe an 8- or so issue run, other issues for other cosmographies. Anyone can play!

 

[Bonetan]

Most of the fiction I like are sort of fairy tale/ supernatural quest sort of things. I've read Proust, Joyce and Faulkner but now that I am old give me Harry Potter or some sword and sorcery stuff. Preteen in an old man's body. Most opera plots bore me but I like Wagner's plots.

I'm right there with you! I always tell folks who ask who my favorite composer is that as a singer its Verdi, but as a fan its Wagner for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[ScottK]

The renditions struck me as stunningly similar to each other and both had the sense of grand pronouncement that I find important in this piece. I’ve always enjoyed Thill and I think here he’s helped by the slightly better recording clarity

 

[Shaughnessy]

Vocal control - Edge to Thill

Good tone - Edge to Thill

Enunciation - Clear two-way tie

Pronunciation - Clear two-way tie

Voice suitability - Edge to Thill

Versatility - Edge to Thill

Musical phrasing - Edge to Thill

Performance that I personally enjoyed the most - Georges Thill

Paul Franz acquitted himself honorably - and I'm probably being overly generous in not marking most of the categories a "clear edge" or even "slight edge" for Thill - but Franz was consistently outplayed by Thill.

If you didn't know that this was a French language translation of a German language aria - as I didn't - It was a pleasant listening session and one that I thoroughly enjoyed... until I read the comments and realized that I probably shouldn't be enjoying this nearly as much as I was...

 

[Woodduck]

Franz was an outstanding singer of Wagner's heldentenor roles, though he did it mainly in French. Very much worth hearing. Just thought someone should say that lest Thill hog all the praise.

 

[ScottK]

at this writing its 11 to 0. Really surprising when you consider how much the two renditions were alike.

 

[Seattleoperafan]

Franz was an outstanding singer of Wagner's heldentenor roles, though he did it mainly in French. Very much worth hearing. Just thought someone should say that lest Thill hog all the praise.

I found him studying up for these contests and Franz was always highly praised. I think French Wagner works better than Italian Wagner ( but an Italian Callas offering is upcoming and NO ONE HERE will object 😜) Prewar France was a huge opera hot spot and most operas were done in French then including Wagner.

 

[Shaughnessy]

at this writing its 11 to 0. Really surprising when you consider how much the two renditions were alike.

Thill is a considerably better actor than Franz - An argument can be made that in the vocal technique categories, a preference for one over the other might only be a question of degrees, but in "musical phrasing", Thill had a clear edge - Wider palette of tonal colours - darker shades, lighter tints, and a far more extensive gray-scale -

Thill's grayscale of tonal colors...

Franz's grayscale of tonal colors...

 

[Bonetan]

I found him studying up for these contests and Franz was always highly praised. I think French Wagner works better than Italian Wagner ( but an Italian Callas offering is upcoming and NO ONE HERE will object 😜) Prewar France was a huge opera hot spot and most operas were done in French then including Wagner.

I learned of him because of the very knowledgeable poster who goes by the name here on TC lol. I figured if this person is using the name this guy must have been quite the singer and indeed he is! But Thill's voice is stunning.

 

[Woodduck]

Thill is a considerably better actor than Franz - An argument can be made that in the vocal technique categories, a preference for one over the other could be made, but in "musical phrasing", Thill had a clear edge - Wider palette of tonal colours - darker shades, lighter tints, and a far more extensive gray-scale -

View attachment 184593

Thill's grayscale of tonal colors...


View attachment 184594

Franz's grayscale of tonal colors...

Thill has a better recording, and I suspect Franz is being hurried along a bit by a conductor anxious to avoid exceeding the timing limits for 78s. That happened often back then. We should always keep the difficulties of recording in mind when judging singers. When we have radio transcriptions of live performances available we can often observe how differently people worked when singing live. My touchstone for this is Frida Leider's live Liebestod compared to her studio one. Night and day (an apt metaphor for the opera in question, purely accidental on my part ).

 

[Seattleoperafan]

Thill is a considerably better actor than Franz - An argument can be made that in the vocal technique categories, a preference for one over the other might only be a question of degrees, but in "musical phrasing", Thill had a clear edge - Wider palette of tonal colours - darker shades, lighter tints, and a far more extensive gray-scale -

View attachment 184593

Thill's grayscale of tonal colors...

View attachment 184594

Franz's grayscale of tonal colors...

This is me

 

[Shaughnessy]

We should always keep the difficulties of recording in mind when judging singers.

Genuinely important point - One that's well worth remembering yet often forgot... Yes, I am indeed talking about you, Shaughnessy... sigh...

 

[ScottK]

Thill is a considerably better actor than Franz - An argument can be made that in the vocal technique categories, a preference for one over the other might only be a question of degrees, but in "musical phrasing", Thill had a clear edge - Wider palette of tonal colours - darker shades, lighter tints, and a far more extensive gray-scale -

View attachment 184593

Thill's grayscale of tonal colors...

View attachment 184594

Franz's grayscale of tonal colors...

Love the visuals Shack-Hennesy! …(you must be familiar with the Key and Peele???)