Sexualisation of women in the classical music industry

62113 Views 575 Replies 60 Participants Last post by Becca, 7 mo ago

ComposerOfAvantGarde

Discussion Starter · Nov 30, 2014

Time and time again people have certainly opined on the presentation of female performers, wether it be Yuja Wang's dress, Lara St. John's CD covers or Anne Sofie Mutter's pose (recently those violinists were pointed out in the worst cd covers thread). Each of these cases, according to different people, have come down to a general conclusion that sexist inclinations of today have influenced their physical appearance (on varying levels). Even on this site there have been debates as to modesty on stage, the importance of appearance, wether women should conduct an orchestra and so on, which all end up boiling down to the same (if not a similar) debate.

What say you, TC, on the topic of sexualisation of women in the classical music industry?

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trazom

· #41 · Dec 1, 2014

I think Yuja Wang is a beautiful and very gifted pianist(even if i don't prefer her in Rachmaninoff), but I'm still slightly curious what percentage of those who buy her CD's or go to her concerts are roughly middle aged conservative white males. I have this uncle who...I think he would enjoy her CDs very much. Now there's a Christmas gift idea.

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Albert7

· #42 · Dec 1, 2014

trazom said:
I think Yuja Wang is a beautiful and very gifted pianist(even if i don't prefer her in Rachmaninoff), but I'm still slightly curious what percentage of those who buy her CD's or go to her concerts are roughly middle aged conservative white males. I have this uncle who...I think he would enjoy her CDs very much. Now there's a Christmas gift idea.

LOL... I am an Asian 30-something old dude and I own 2 Yuja Wang discs... I got those for her playing quality.

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Marschallin Blair

· #43 · Dec 1, 2014

HaydnBearstheClock said:
I think it's a bit silly, since classical music should ideally be about the skill level and musical talent and not looks. But sex seems to find its way into almost everything these days, and classical music as well. It might be because capitalist society essentially functions like a Darwinian 'surivial of the fittest' system, and sexuality is seen as one of the key reflections of a person's 'fitness'. Personally, I get skeptical if I see a sexy woman on a classical cover, because I start wondering about other artists who may be better but can't get on those covers. Of course, highly attractive women can also be great performers, no question. But I guess women are portrayed that way to make the younger generation pay more attention to classical. Honestly, who here needs to a sexually attractive album cover to enjoy their classical CD?

Of course, looks and beauty mean nothing in a socialist society.

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Marschallin Blair

· #44 · Dec 1, 2014

SiegendesLicht said:
That is a beautiful poem. Love Walt! Now, was there anything in it about wearing mini-skirts, high heels, and low cuts and posing provocatively for album covers? It seems, the kind of sexuality he describes is the exact opposite of all that.

But then, what would 'Walt Whitman' know about women anyway? ;D

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Richannes Wrahms

· #45 · Dec 1, 2014

It will always happen. Almost all song in the natural world is exclusively for the purpose of reproduction. It is easy and effective to appeal to the inner layers of the brain. (this is not by all means a justification)

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KenOC

· #46 · Dec 1, 2014

Marschallin Blair said:
But then, what would 'Walt Whitman' know about women anyway? ;D

Ha, I was going to ask that! But didn't.

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KenOC

· #47 · Dec 1, 2014

Richannes Wrahms said:
It will always happen. Almost all song in the natural world is exclusively for the purpose of reproduction. It is easy and effective to appeal to the inner layers of the brain. (this is not by all means a justification)

Oddly, it wasn't a successful strategy for that famous "great" composer, Beethoven.

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Woodduck

· #48 · Dec 1, 2014

StlukesguildOhio said:
For this cover I and my consultants have decided to try something a little daring. We thought it would be a cool experiment to cover more of my soft, radiantly lovely skin than usual with this sleek, colorful little number. Maybe it's not exactly what my fans expect, but it's just meant as a bit of harmless fun and we're not trying to offend anyone. I mean, you all know what's under it, right? Notice how the back is not actually low-cut, but merely gives the illusion that it might split open if I bent over. Isn't that what Americans call a "wardrobe malfunction?" Haha. I just love American audiences. And then notice how the pattern over my *** makes it look as if someone cut out a piece of the dress and my buns are catching the light invitingly. See? I'm really very covered up, but you can pretend that I'm not! You like? Oh, I hope so. But don't worry! You're going to see lots more of me in my next album!

Sexuality and physical beauty have been a key element of the arts since ancient... even prehistoric times:

It is easy to judge miss Wang. So she's a **** or something akin because she has made the choice to use her physical attractiveness to her advantage? Perhaps she simply wishes to embrace the possibility that classical musicians need not look like old frumpy Victorian-spinsters. Perhaps she would challenge the notion that it is only the tanned, toned, American blonde (no offense Marschallin) who can be sexy... that Chinese women should all dress as if Mao's cultural revolution were still in force. Perhaps she simply has no shame in celebrating her own sexuality... and if this sells more CDs... so much the better.

Perhaps as a visual artist I am well aware of the power of the visual and fearful of any Puritan efforts to censor or shame.

Gosh, I didn't think anyone would take me seriously!

Marschallin Blair

· #49 · Dec 1, 2014 (Edited)

3

StlukesguildOhio said:
For this cover I and my consultants have decided to try something a little daring. We thought it would be a cool experiment to cover more of my soft, radiantly lovely skin than usual with this sleek, colorful little number. Maybe it's not exactly what my fans expect, but it's just meant as a bit of harmless fun and we're not trying to offend anyone. I mean, you all know what's under it, right? Notice how the back is not actually low-cut, but merely gives the illusion that it might split open if I bent over. Isn't that what Americans call a "wardrobe malfunction?" Haha. I just love American audiences. And then notice how the pattern over my *** makes it look as if someone cut out a piece of the dress and my buns are catching the light invitingly. See? I'm really very covered up, but you can pretend that I'm not! You like? Oh, I hope so. But don't worry! You're going to see lots more of me in my next album!

Sexuality and physical beauty have been a key element of the arts since ancient... even prehistoric times:

It is easy to judge miss Wang. So she's a **** or something akin because she has made the choice to use her physical attractiveness to her advantage? Perhaps she simply wishes to embrace the possibility that classical musicians need not look like old frumpy Victorian-spinsters. Perhaps she would challenge the notion that it is only the tanned, toned, American blonde (no offense Marschallin) who can be sexy... that Chinese women should all dress as if Mao's cultural revolution were still in force. Perhaps she simply has no shame in celebrating her own sexuality... and if this sells more CDs... so much the better.

Perhaps as a visual artist I am well aware of the power of the visual and fearful of any Puritan efforts to censor or shame.

Absolutely.

Yuja's cute and I'm an established bleachhead. We're two of a kind, which always beats a full head of skin.

- Hey, if I'm going to be punished for my looks, I'm not going to give carte blanche for ugliness-- especially on cd covers.

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brianvds

· #50 · Dec 1, 2014

starthrower said:
I'm only interested in the music. There was actually a debate on whether women should conduct? Maybe we should ask pope Francis?

Women are welcome to conduct as long as they don't use a baton, or if they do, refrain from making inappropriate movements with it.

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Marschallin Blair

· #51 · Dec 1, 2014

Woodduck said:
Gosh, I didn't think anyone would take me seriously!

They didn't ;D ;D ;D

SimonNZ

· #52 · Dec 1, 2014

KenOC said:
Time to call out the National Guard!

It might pay to be reminded that the image that started this debate on the Worst Covers thread was this one:

I commented that she looked worryingly underage. Some agreed. Others didn't.

I bring this up because since then people have been sounding off about how "puritanical" some are on TC for being suspicious of the use and the intention of an image like this, which seems a step or two further than suggestive or alluring.

I don't consider myself puritanical, and even putting the "jailbait" issue to one side my complaint would be that a cd cover should be indicative of the nature of the contents, along with how serious it wishes to be taken. This one doesn't exactly say "historically informed performance" in my view.

Someone else pointed out that the idea behind the cover was that "unaccompanied Bach exposes the artist completely. Okay then: move the violin aside and crop the photo at at least knee level. (I'm tempted to add a joke about how onanism, which this cover seems to be wishing to incite, is against Lutheran doctrine - but I'll try and rise above that).

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Marschallin Blair

· #53 · Dec 1, 2014

brianvds said:
Women are welcome to conduct as long as they don't use a baton, or if they do, refrain from making inappropriate movements with it.

Why? Does the husband need it as a marital aid or something?

Marschallin Blair

· #54 · Dec 1, 2014 (Edited)

SimonNZ said:
It might pay to be reminded that the image that started this debate on the Worst Covers thread was this one:

I commented that she looked worryingly underage. Some agreed. Others didn't.

I bring this up because since then people have been sounding off about how "puritanical" some are on TC for being suspicious of the use and the intention of an image like this, which seems a step or two further than suggestive or alluring.

I don't consider myself puritanical, and even putting the "jailbait" issue to one side my complaint would be that a cd cover should be indicative of the nature of the contents, along with how serious it wishes to be taken. This one doesn't exactly say "historically informed performance" in my view.

Someone else pointed out that the idea behind the cover was that "unaccompanied Bach exposes the artist completely. Okay then: move the violin aside and crop the photo at at least knee level. (I'm tempted to add a joke about how onanism, which this cover seems to be wishing to incite, is against Lutheran doctrine - but I'll try and rise above that).

Would this Bach cd cover, for instance, say "historically informed performance"? I didn't think so either.

If certain men can't resist the pull of their lewd and lascivious impulses toward young girls, perhaps they shouldn't leave the house. . . without their chastity belt.

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senza sordino

· #55 · Dec 1, 2014

I'm sure some people consider me a prude and a hypocrite. I just think people of the cover of a classical music CD should be clothed. It's the gratuitous sex that I find too much. But before you criticize me read my first sentence. What's too much? I'll know when I see it.

I also think that women display far more overt sexuality than men, and that's a double standard. No one expects James Ehnes to be on the cover of a CD naked expect for a strategically placed violin dangling between his legs. Or James Ehnes sprawled out on a chaise lounge. Sure men take advantage of their good looks, but I think women ultimately are obligated to take it further - as objects of sexuality.

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SimonNZ

· #56 · Dec 1, 2014 (Edited)

Marschallin Blair said:
Would this Bach cd cover, for instance, say "historically informed performance"? I didn't think so either.

As I'm sure you're aware...that cover comes in a series of Steve McCurry photos from all over the world and of both men and women of all ages and religions.

I can only assume the general idea is the universality of Bach's music's appeal - or something in that ballpark.

McCurry's artistry and seriousness is also analagous to Bach's

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Woodduck

· #57 · Dec 1, 2014 (Edited)

A beautiful photograph of a beautiful woman playing Bach on the violin, and a piece of pseudo-kiddieporn that bears not the slightest relationship to music or anything else worthwhile and is obviously a cheap bid for attention and money, are two entirely different and unrelated things.

Is there anyone who cannot understand the difference?

To dislike the latter, and to be prudish or opposed to the display of human beauty, are also two entirely different and unrelated things.

Is there anyone for whom that is also a puzzling distinction?

This thread does not ask about beauty or sexuality. It asks about sexualization.

Is there anyone...?

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Marschallin Blair

· #58 · Dec 1, 2014 (Edited)

senza sordino said:
I'm sure some people consider me a prude and a hypocrite. I just think people of the cover of a classical music CD should be clothed. It's the gratuitous sex that I find too much. But before you criticize me read my first sentence. What's too much? I'll know when I see it.

I also think that women display far more overt sexuality than men, and that's a double standard. No one expects James Ehnes to be on the cover of a CD naked expect for a strategically placed violin dangling between his legs. Or James Ehnes sprawled out on a chaise lounge. Sure men take advantage of their good looks, but I think women ultimately are obligated to take it further - as objects of sexuality.

And cheers to people making their own choices as to what's suitably appropriate for themselves-- and not for others.

The great thing about Amazon.com is that you can vote with your dollars and get exactly what you want-- and not what someone else decides for you.

Marschallin Blair

· #59 · Dec 1, 2014

Woodduck said:
A beautiful photograph of a beautiful woman playing Bach on the violin, and a piece of pseudo-kiddieporn that bears not the slightest relationship to music or anything else worthwhile and is obviously a cheap bid for attention and money, are two entirely different and unrelated things.

Is there anyone who cannot understand the difference?

To dislike the latter, and to be prudish or opposed to the diplay of human beauty, are also two entirely different and unrelated things.

Is there anyone for whom that is also a puzzling distinction?

This thread does not ask about beauty or sexuality. It asks about sexualization.

Is there anyone...?

Of course they're different--- as different as apples and screwdrivers. I for one never presumed otherwise. I just disagree with the "kiddie porn" charge because Lara St. John is, in fact, an adult woman.

And who's to say that Bach's music can't be erotic? I certainly think some of it is, and I'm not even that great a fan of his music.

Marschallin Blair

· #60 · Dec 1, 2014 (Edited)

SimonNZ said:
As I'm sure you're aware...that cover comes in a series of Steve McCurry photos from all over the world and of both men and women of all ages and religions.

I can only assume the general idea is the universality of Bach's music's appeal - or something in that ballpark.

McCurry's artistry and seriousness is also analagous to Bach's

. . . and what's the most universally human thing of all?- sex. . .

Lara, you look lovely. Your cover is quite possibly the greatest cover I've ever seen on a Bach cd.

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