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Callas and Gobbi were both Incomperably as vocal actors. However the actual sound of their voices have certainly been surpassed by others. Why no singer could ever 'ruin' things for me as everyone has something different to bring to the table. Mind you, Gobbi's credo takes some beating!

This is an interesting point but just as a personal opinion I think the quality of Callas's voice was perfect. It had an almost tearful quality to it, it was incredibly expressive and could be used in an excitingly dramatic way too. It was also a very... Precise voice, you could clearly hear all of the notes. It was a truer voice.
 

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This is an interesting point but just as a personal opinion I think the quality of Callas's voice was perfect. It had an almost tearful quality to it, it was incredibly expressive and could be used in an excitingly dramatic way too. It was also a very... Precise voice, you could clearly hear all of the notes. It was a truer voice.
I don't find the Callas voice inherently one of the most sensually beautiful, and in certain music don't care for her basic sound at all. Not everyone could have used her instrument as she did. But it was a deeply human voice, multidimensional, bitter and sweet, dark and brilliant, soft and hard, full of odd colors and surprising timbral vibrations which she could alter and employ to express an incredible variety of emotions. This was nature taking with one hand and giving with the other - or, to use another image, you need a lemon to make lemonade. Fortunately she had the genius to play to the hilt the hand, or voice, she was dealt. A true voice - a true artist, honest all the way down, missing nothing, concealing nothing, sparing nothing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
This is an interesting point but just as a personal opinion I think the quality of Callas's voice was perfect. It had an almost tearful quality to it, it was incredibly expressive and could be used in an excitingly dramatic way too. It was also a very... Precise voice, you could clearly hear all of the notes. It was a truer voice.
Callas's appeal comes precisely from the fact that her voice wasn't perfect. the majority of the voice was somewhat muddy, husky, almost snarling, like a mezzo villainous singing in the soprano range.
 

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Callas's appeal comes precisely from the fact that her voice wasn't perfect. the majority of the voice was somewhat muddy, husky, almost snarling, like a mezzo villainous singing in the soprano range.
Isn't it a little disparaging to say that vocal imperfection is what makes a singer appealing? Callas's appeal comes from a great many things more significant. Something to do with musicianship, maybe? And do keep in mind that the things - things musical, dramatic, and, yes, technical - she knew how to do with that imperfect voice are still waiting to be equaled in her repertoire. That's the precise source of her "appeal."
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 · (Edited)
Isn't it a little disparaging to say that vocal imperfection is what makes a singer appealing?
no, not in the slightest

Callas's appeal comes from a great many things more significant. Something to do with musicianship, maybe? And do keep in mind that the things - things musical, dramatic, and, yes, technical - she knew how to do with that imperfect voice are still waiting to be equaled in her repertoire. That's the precise source of her "appeal."
fair points, though I tend to define "her repertoire" a little more narrowly than most (and rest assured, I practically worship her in half of it lol).
 

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no, not in the slightest

fair points, though I tend to define "her repertoire" a little more narrowly than most (and rest assured, I practically worship her in half of it lol).
You're certainly entitled to find Callas's vocal "imperfections" appealing. But are the things you cited really imperfections, or just peculiarities? "Muddy," "husky," and "almost snarling" concern her timbre(s) and are rather subjective descriptors, aren't they? I'm not just being argumentative. Actual imperfections have to do with faults in the way a voice works. Callas developed real imperfections as her career proceeded, and I rather doubt that you find the strain and wobble of her later years appealing.
 

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I don't find the Callas voice inherently one of the most sensually beautiful, and in certain music don't care for her basic sound at all. Not everyone could have used her instrument as she did. But it was a deeply human voice, multidimensional, bitter and sweet, dark and brilliant, soft and hard, full of odd colors and surprising timbral vibrations which she could alter and employ to express an incredible variety of emotions. This was nature taking with one hand and giving with the other - or, to use another image, you need a lemon to make lemonade. Fortunately she had the genius to play to the hilt the hand, or voice, she was dealt. A true voice - a true artist, honest all the way down, missing nothing, concealing nothing, sparing nothing.
To me, Callas especially after around 1965 or so is like if Sviatoslav Richter were forced to only play on some dusty church basement Baldwin upright. A great artist with staggering musicianship and technique but stuck with an unfortunate instrument. I've no doubt thought that Richter on that basement piano would still be a fantastic listen, but it'd always be a little distracting that his instrument is a limiting one.

And then for me, Callas's repertoire choices would be like if Richter on the Baldwin spent most of his time playing, like, Scarlatti and Clementi or something, some repertoire I find as uninteresting as I find bel canto.
 

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To me, Callas especially after around 1965 or so is like if Sviatoslav Richter were forced to only play on some dusty church basement Baldwin upright. A great artist with staggering musicianship and technique but stuck with an unfortunate instrument. I've no doubt thought that Richter on that basement piano would still be a fantastic listen, but it'd always be a little distracting that his instrument is a limiting one.

And then for me, Callas's repertoire choices would be like if Richter on the Baldwin spent most of his time playing, like, Scarlatti and Clementi or something, some repertoire I find as uninteresting as I find bel canto.
I feel similarly about Callas's core repertoire. "Bel canto" opera is, for me, almost entirely a singer's art. Those composers knew how to exploit the voice operating at its highest capacity for intrinsically vocal expressiveness. Callas in her prime was uniquely suited to realize the possibilities of such music. Without her, I hardly ever want to listen to those operas (and not often with her) - which is not to say that I think they're poor. They just require a rare sort of artist, a supremely accomplished vocalist who understands the music's rhetoric and can turn a sad little songbird (Lucia di Lammermoor, e.g.) into a woman of real passion and pathos.
 

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Callas's appeal comes precisely from the fact that her voice wasn't perfect. the majority of the voice was somewhat muddy, husky, almost snarling, like a mezzo villainous singing in the soprano range.
I get what you're trying to say. I too find that her appeal stems mostly from a conventionally-ugly (only conventionally though) sound. In her best repertoire, the roles call for a hard-edged voice that can slice through the biggest orchestras like Valyrian Steel. Add a sinister witch-like quality to it and it becomes the perfect instrument for Norma, Medea, Armida, etc not to mention it is what Verdi himself wanted for Lady Macbeth.
Most large voices lack at least one of these two qualities. Or maybe they weren't brave enough to sacrifice conventionally beautiful velvety sounds for dramatic effect.

With that in mind, whether you find Callas' voice in her prime (that is before 1953) beautiful is very subjective. The timbre was black according to Maria herself. She said it made her think of thick molasses. So those who found her timbre ugly simply weren't into black. It means you're a Mimi kind of person and would rather listen to La Boheme than Medea. It's a matter of pure personal taste. Because at her prime, the voice was pretty much flawless. It was ample, dark, steely and "poured out of her the way Flagstad's did" according to Mr Bonynge. The top was free of wobble and huge, the middle was gargantuan, the bottom cavernous, the coloratura immaculate. There was an evenness among all her registers at that point and there was almost nothing technical one could complain about. Her early live recordings of Aida, Trovatore, Vespri, Nabucco, Norma and Lucia readily prove that. Callas after 1954 though is another story. That's when it's totally legitimate to complain about some imperfections that in my opinion didn't take from her performances and absolutely nothing bothered me about it.

The kind of timbre Callas had is considered ugly only because of conventions. People sought after voluptuous and creamy sounds. But I do not think that you can sing with such technical prowess and be considered an ugly voice unless it's simply not what the listener is looking for.

Now that only explains why she appeals to me. Why she is so popular is absolutely not due to her vocal peculiarity. It's actually what made her so controversial i.e she could have been twice as popular had she sounded like Tebaldi. Callas was worshipped for being a musical genius. She was more of a cunning musician than a singer with a god-given talent.
 

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I get what you're trying to say. I too find that her appeal stems mostly from a conventionally-ugly (only conventionally though) sound. In her best repertoire, the roles call for a hard-edged voice that can slice through the biggest orchestras like Valyrian Steel. Add a sinister witch-like quality to it and it becomes the perfect instrument for Norma, Medea, Armida, etc not to mention it is what Verdi himself wanted for Lady Macbeth.
Most large voices lack at least one of these two qualities. Or maybe they weren't brave enough to sacrifice conventionally beautiful velvety sounds for dramatic effect.

With that in mind, whether you find Callas' voice in her prime (that is before 1953) beautiful is very subjective. The timbre was black according to Maria herself. She said it made her think of thick molasses. So those who found her timbre ugly simply weren't into black. It means you're a Mimi kind of person and would rather listen to La Boheme than Medea. It's a matter of pure personal taste. Because at her prime, the voice was pretty much flawless. It was ample, dark, steely and "poured out of her the way Flagstad's did" according to Mr Bonynge. The top was free of wobble and huge, the middle was gargantuan, the bottom cavernous, the coloratura immaculate. There was an evenness among all her registers at that point and there was almost nothing technical one could complain about. Her early live recordings of Aida, Trovatore, Vespri, Nabucco, Norma and Lucia readily prove that. Callas after 1954 though is another story. That's when it's totally legitimate to complain about some imperfections that in my opinion didn't take from her performances and absolutely nothing bothered me about it.

The kind of timbre Callas had is considered ugly only because of conventions. People sought after voluptuous and creamy sounds. But I do not think that you can sing with such technical prowess and be considered an ugly voice unless it's simply not what the listener is looking for.

Now that only explains why she appeals to me. Why she is so popular is absolutely not due to her vocal peculiarity. It's actually what made her so controversial i.e she could have been twice as popular had she sounded like Tebaldi. Callas was worshipped for being a musical genius. She was more of a cunning musician than a singer with a god-given talent.
The first objective post on that matter on this site. Bravo!
 

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I often wonder with Callas if she hadn't have climbed and become the beautiful woman she was whether she would be the object of such adulation and worship with pictures constantly posted; or whether she would just be admired as a truly great opera singer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #73 ·
You're certainly entitled to find Callas's vocal "imperfections" appealing. But are the things you cited really imperfections, or just peculiarities? "Muddy," "husky," and "almost snarling" concern her timbre(s) and are rather subjective descriptors, aren't they? I'm not just being argumentative. Actual imperfections have to do with faults in the way a voice works.
indeed, I was mostly speaking as a matter of personal tastes rather than a more "objective" imperfection such as one related to poor vocal technique or a physiological impediment.

Callas developed real imperfections as her career proceeded, and I rather doubt that you find the strain and wobble of her later years appealing.
this I can agree with, especially her high notes. her
 

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I don't find the Callas voice inherently one of the most sensually beautiful, and in certain music don't care for her basic sound at all. Not everyone could have used her instrument as she did. But it was a deeply human voice, multidimensional, bitter and sweet, dark and brilliant, soft and hard, full of odd colors and surprising timbral vibrations which she could alter and employ to express an incredible variety of emotions. This was nature taking with one hand and giving with the other - or, to use another image, you need a lemon to make lemonade. Fortunately she had the genius to play to the hilt the hand, or voice, she was dealt. A true voice - a true artist, honest all the way down, missing nothing, concealing nothing, sparing nothing.
Totally the most brilliantly expressed version of Maria Callas I have ever read from anyone. Bravo!
 

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I often wonder with Callas if she hadn't have climbed and become the beautiful woman she was whether she would be the object of such adulation and worship with pictures constantly posted; or whether she would just be admired as a truly great opera singer.
It is not often that I happen to agree with your posts but I must say that I too have wondered about it from time to time and have made my own judgment that likely her persona would not have been as popular had she been fat and homely looking. Sad to say but true in my eyes.
Callas was a complete package, including her not-so-beautiful-sounding voice. A rare animal with a striking presence and charisma who had the ability to turn heads. She also had a rare combination of a demanding diva mixed with an appealing girlish quality about her.
She will forever have her followers and her detractors. A true icon.
 

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I often wonder with Callas if she hadn't have climbed and become the beautiful woman she was whether she would be the object of such adulation and worship with pictures constantly posted; or whether she would just be admired as a truly great opera singer.
Of course there will always be people excited by physical beauty, glamor, controversy, scandal, and other relatively superficial matters. A lot of the Callas "image" - but mostly the negative aspects of that image - concerned such things. The "image" did not create her celebrity, which was well under way before her Audrey Hepburn transformation, and they are not of much importance to her legacy, which is fundamentally artistic and acknowledged as such. Outside the usual coteries of "fans," what we have is a recorded legacy that stands triumphantly on its own merits. When I want to hear a great singer give me an astonishingly original and powerful Medea or Lucia or lady Macbeth or Norma or Tosca or Carmen, what she weighed at the time of the performance and who she had an affair with are the farthest things from my mind. I dare say this is true for most of us. I can't imagine why the fact that she was also stunning to look at should be a problem for anyone. Leave the groupies alone. They're really harmless, you know.
 

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Of course there will always be people excited by physical beauty, glamor, controversy, scandal, and other relatively superficial matters. A lot of the Callas "image" - but mostly the negative aspects of that image - concerned such things. The "image" did not create her celebrity, which was well under way before her Audrey Hepburn transformation, and they are not of much importance to her legacy, which is fundamentally artistic and acknowledged as such. Outside the usual coteries of "fans," what we have is a recorded legacy that stands triumphantly on its own merits. When I want to hear a great singer give me an astonishingly original and powerful Medea or Lucia or lady Macbeth or Norma or Tosca or Carmen, what she weighed at the time of the performance and who she had an affair with are the farthest things from my mind. I dare say this is true for most of us. I can't imagine why the fact that she was also stunning to look at should be a problem for anyone. Leave the groupies alone. They're really harmless, you know.
You wrote my post for me again :tiphat: :eek:
 

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These are all the same arguments about Callas that have been repeated continuously since the 1950s. Do we not realize that she is the *only* singer who is still a living presence, the subject of such debate nearly 40 years after her death, 52 years after she left the operatic stage, and 57 years since she had anything resembling a usable voice?! It says, first of all, that opera never recovered from her loss. Secondly, it says that she wasn't a 'singer' or 'singing actress' at all--truly damning with faint praise. She transcended her repertoire and her medium, not to mention her fans' and detractors' misdirected ideas about what she should be. She was, as she said herself, a *musician*--and perhaps the greatest one in the 20th century. When she talked about colleagues, she never referred to singers, always to other great musicians like Heifetz and Furtwangler. She used her voice the way Heifetz used his Guarnerius. Every nuance in the music was amplified and improved (given that much opera is a compromised form). 'Opera is something that has been dead a long time, so if we really don't [work hard to make it believable], it's not taken in with pleasure.' She said this three years after she stopped singing. The same year (1968), she gave a brilliant, ice-cold analysis of her Lady Macbeth on a radio program for John Ardoin, detailing how, where, and why every nuance was selected. Could or would any other 'singer' do that, except in the most general terms? Doubtful. Her voice (1): the argument, as Zeffirelli put it in a 1978 documentary 'was as old as opera itself: beauty of vocal tone vs expressive use of the voice.' Indeed, we first see this satirized by Benedetto Marcello in the 1720 'Teatro alla moda': he comes down heavily in favor of expression. Her voice (2): perfect until August 1953, capable of nuances and color undreamed by opera composers, easy execution of the most fiendish passaggi, astounding top, middle, and low registers, endless expressivity. With the use of rhetorical time never heard with any other singer in quite this purposeful way, and the use of every expressive device open to musicians, the music came to vibrant life in an unheard-of manner, making anyone else look like... just a singer. Her voice changed drastically over time, but the musicianship did not. What listeners need to decide is whether they like the music; it is presented in its ultimate form by Callas. The rest is secondary. Carping about her vocal decay is tiresome. A dramatic weight loss, 1953-4 made the first mess: she'd learned how to sing in a different body, and the new one couldn't quite do the same things. Think of what would happen if someone thinned the plates of Heifetz's Guarneri. She continued to lose weight even after that, looking like a Holocaust survivor when shaking hands with ex-President Truman in 1959. Being thought of as homely for much of her life caused her to chase beauty and glamour, ruining her real gift. By 1960, the voice was damaged beyond repair, because the 1953-4 diet and stresses with which her slimmer, less muscular body could not cope after that, set in motion premature menopause which hit in late 1957 and pretty well finished her; having matured early--at age eleven, she might have been thus affected even without the weight loss, but the strain must surely have worsened the effect on her voice. Everyone likes to blame Onassis for ruining her musical career. He was a pig, but looking at it logically, she knew her voice was really departing by mid-1959, and she used him to conceal the fact from the public. Sadly, he hated music so the ruse was finite. With no reasonable voice, she had no choice: she did some more recordings and performances in the '60s. By then, it was almost impossible to listen to the art through the vocal damage. But the art was there, and some things, even from that period, leave one gasping and in tears (like descriptions of great performers' effects on listeners in the 1700s or similarly ruined singers of the 1800s like Giuditta Pasta): e.g., 'Willow Song/Ave Maria' in the second Verdi album.

Callas set the bar at a preposterously high level forever. The only reason to listen to other 'singers' in the same rep is to hear music cut in Callas' performances, as she still was taught with the provincialism of that mindset. She can't really spoil us for music she didn't sing, except that we--and the singers themselves--hear in our/their minds what she might have done. Callas, until 1959, always leaves me with the same question (except for performance practice glitches and bad editions): 'How else would one do it?'
 

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People on another chat group are busy posting about how beautiful Callas became and how 'fashionably' dressed. I expected better from these particular people: surely they know that as Callas became a glamour icon, her originally great voice declined further and further; one can hear it, practically month by month; and one gradually has to defend her solely on her great musical merits--which, for some, are too arcane. The latest photo to appear there is a little-known bejeweled one from the 1965 period. Sure, she was beautiful, but just contrast the picture with the utterly destroyed voice of that period that would accompany it--a voice not even her brilliant, innate musicality could save by that point--and it's infinitely depressing. I am shocked and saddened by the shallowness of the posters. Great art being replaced by a fashion show is nothing to celebrate.
 

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People on another chat group are busy posting about how beautiful Callas became and how 'fashionably' dressed. I expected better from these particular people: surely they know that as Callas became a glamour icon, her originally great voice declined further and further; one can hear it, practically month by month; and one gradually has to defend her solely on her great musical merits--which, for some, are too arcane. The latest photo to appear there is a little-known bejeweled one from the 1965 period. Sure, she was beautiful, but just contrast the picture with the utterly destroyed voice of that period that would accompany it--a voice not even her brilliant, innate musicality could save by that point--and it's infinitely depressing. I am shocked and saddened by the shallowness of the posters. Great art being replaced by a fashion show is nothing to celebrate.
Agreed. And the tragedy deepens for us when we know how insecure Callas was, how driven to compensate for the sense of never being good enough - or, to this particular point, beautiful enough. "What ifs" are always speculative, but had she grown up feeling loved for herself, and not needing to earn love by constantly topping and torturing herself, she might have seen and felt herself to be the beautiful young singer that we, looking at her early photos, can see so plainly. The art that her emaciated "glamor" was intended to serve might ultimately have been better - or at least longer - served by a little more self-acceptance and a little more healthy meat on her bones.
 
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