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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I think all art channels energy contained in the universe, but believe some in particular channel, and further, depict, the divine spiritual energy ("God"). I believe all the religious figures like Jesus or Ganesha do this as well and are too, art.

I propose that Mozart channeled the divine energy to the highest form in all his works making him the most spiritually inclined musical artist to ever live.

This is all hypothetical and I can't prove any of it, but I think it will make for an interesting discussion. Feel free to relate your favorite composers to my ideas stated above.

Cheers!
 

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I propose that Mozart channeled the divine energy to the highest form in all his works making him the most spiritually inclined musical artist to ever live.
I've known you long enough to know what you intend by constantly reviving or creating threads of titles and OPs with controversial statements about Mozart.
1. Trigger Mozart-naysayers to respond
2. Proceed to your "denouement"; "Beethoven is Better"
eg. Captainnumber36: "How do you feel about Beethoven Norman Bates? I think he's much more the expressionist when compared to Mozart. He has the tortured artist concept going for him, and much of his music is filled with a dark intellectual beauty." <from the thread Mozart is the Van Gogh of CM>
 

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I'm a devout atheist, so I don't go in for all that "spirit" and "god" stuff, but I do believe that art taps into something ineffable, something preconscious, something divine that all people share-regardless of language, regardless of culture, regardless of training.

People who have had brain injuries that prevent them from speaking can often still sing.

People who are in a coma sometimes respond to music.

Mozart-and other child prodigies-certainly make one wonder where such talent comes from at such an early age.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I've known you long enough to know what you intend by constantly reviving or creating threads of titles and OPs with controversial statements about Mozart.
1. Trigger Mozart-naysayers to respond
2. Proceed to your "denouement"; "Beethoven is Better"
eg. Captainnumber36: "How do you feel about Beethoven Norman Bates? I think he's much more the expressionist when compared to Mozart. He has the tortured artist concept going for him, and much of his music is filled with a dark intellectual beauty." <from the thread Mozart is the Van Gogh of CM>
I'm not trying to do anything but have a conversation. Mozart is my favorite, so it typically all comes back to him in different contexts and ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I'm a devout atheist, so I don't go in for all that "spirit" and "god" stuff, but I do believe that art taps into something ineffable, something preconscious, something divine that all people share-regardless of language, regardless of culture, regardless of training.

People who have had brain injuries that prevent them from speaking can often still sing.

People who are in a coma sometimes respond to music.

Mozart-and other child prodigies-certainly make one wonder where such talent comes from at such an early age.
I think using terms like God and spirit can be off-putting, but your idea of divinity being shared by all of us and being able to tap into it may be the key to something grander in the universe.

The reason I think Mozart is the most spiritually inclined is because his music seems to be perfect in so many ways. Length, melody, flow and etc.
 

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The reason I think Mozart is the most spiritually inclined is because his music seems to be perfect in so many ways. Length, melody, flow and etc.
I know what you're thinking and implying, (you're always free to just "spit it out"), something along the lines of:
"When Mozart's name is mentioned in association with Beethoven, however, Berlioz no longer shrinks from differentiation of grade: clearly Beethoven is superior. Speaking of Mozart's 'Prague' Symphony (no.38, K.504), he grants it some merit, but remarks that 'it seems to us infinitely removed from Beethoven's sublimities'. Mozart is 'pleasant, gentle, graceful, witty', but Beethoven 'by his majestic stature ... arouses respect not without some element of terror'." .........
"But at times he does avow it most freely: 'There is something discouraging, even irritating about the unfailing beauty of this somewhat lengthy work, always so serene and full of self-assurance, obliging you to pay it constant homage from start to finish.' This utterance appears in a generally favourable criticism about a performance of Le Nozze di Figaro cited earlier in this article. So it is this so-called classical poise and tranquility, attributed to Mozart, that irritates him above all." (Benjamin Perl)
 

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From the site's guidelines:

A special forum has been created for Political and/or Religious discussions that are related to Classical Music. In general political comments and posts are not allowed on Talk Classical, neither in threads nor posts in its forums, social groups, visitor messaging, blogs and signatures, other than those specified related solely to Classical Music in this special dedicated forum. For religious comments and posts, the same holds, except that religious statements are allowed in signatures, and general religious threads and posts are allowed in the social groups.
I moved the thread to the appropriate forum. Please note that discussion should focus on the music and how it is influenced by religious aspects, not on religion itself.
 

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I am not a spiritualist nor interested in spiritualism, many might mistake my narratives to be but I am just against the authoritative denominations of all things. Music is surely conveying something larger than our apparent percepted portions of components from its extra-conscious level of artistic formalities and identities, western music developed from the concept of universalism in harmony not spiritualism. It would be hugely misleading to call anything that is against materialism as spiritualism, or, it is the agenda of materialism to lead people into blind supersition in spiritualism via double-agent operation(I actually believe that superistitious spiritualism is worse than pure materialism). Mozart is said to be a member of the masonry, how did his membership of such occultism influence his music? I do not know. Neverthless his vocal and instrumental music are beautiful, he is the only composer for piano whom as a harpsichord proponent in the keyboard rivalry I feel envious about. From instinction I dislike masonry and similar brothelhood, if they protected Mozart then I will thank them for this part, but I will not be interested in these occultism via Mozart`s music; like Carissimi, a composer of the Jesuits, I never get interested in Jesuits via his music, if anything never beyond the latin lyrics and tradition hymns and psalms he set to music. Music for music, it does not beg for spiritualism to hand its integrity, if any spiritualism did not court its assistance or at least, find itself in mutual need with music.

Spiritualism is a very abused concept in our age, blind belief in spiritualism is as poisonous as superstitious materialism. But music is dignified as art, science, knowledge, experience anything you take it to be as long as you like it, this is a fact that cannot be compromised by any human spiritualistic or materialistic patronizations. Also, using music as a means to spiritual ascension is also not to be the highest purpose of music, if the man is evil no music can help, it comes down to the very nature of people unchanged by any influences, if music can pervert a man`s soul then anything else can, but not everything is as able as music to educate a man`s better natures. Music is powerful but not omnipotent, man can explore unlimited possibilities but not omnipotence, if people fall for their own delusions, nothing can save them. All can be sure is that music is very powerful, and more powerful than people can know, but we do not need to overstretch everything limitlessly into our own realms of delusions, like we do with spiritualism, materialism.
 

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I've known you long enough to know what you intend by constantly reviving or creating threads of titles and OPs with controversial statements about Mozart.
1. Trigger Mozart-naysayers to respond
2. Proceed to your "denouement"; "Beethoven is Better"
eg. Captainnumber36: "How do you feel about Beethoven Norman Bates? I think he's much more the expressionist when compared to Mozart. He has the tortured artist concept going for him, and much of his music is filled with a dark intellectual beauty." <from the thread Mozart is the Van Gogh of CM>
Maybe my memory doesn't work perfectly but I seriously doubt I've ever said anything like that onestly, certainly not in those terms (even because while I certainly love expressionism, some of my favorite music is not dark or expressionist at all, quite light, serene and uplifting actually).
But since I'm here: I was listening a few hours ago the sonata k.330 and while there were certainly many clever things about it, its character that to my ears sounds definitely as "galante" is definitely not something that (even if I'm agnostic) doesn't channel very well a spirituality, even admitting the mastery of the craft. I find in it a bit of vanity onestly, which is not something that I tend to associate to something spiritual. Just my impression of it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Maybe my memory doesn't work perfectly but I seriously doubt I've ever said anything like that onestly, certainly not in those terms (even because while I certainly love expressionism, some of my favorite music is not dark or expressionist at all, quite light, serene and uplifting actually).
But since I'm here: I was listening a few hours ago the sonata k.330 and while there were certainly many clever things about it, its character that to my ears sounds definitely as "galante" is definitely not something that (even if I'm agnostic) doesn't channel very well a spirituality, even admitting the mastery of the craft. I find in it a bit of vanity onestly, which is not something that I tend to associate to something spiritual. Just my impression of it.
He's saying I stated that, not you. Interesting takes! I never find Mozart to be filled with vanity.
 

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I propose that Mozart channeled the divine energy to the highest form in all his works making him the most spiritually inclined musical artist to ever live.
I don't. I think Mozart was extremely good at writing music that brought the stylistic elements of the 18th century period to a very high plane. HIs operas were both dramatically and musically the most advanced of his age, and his letters show him to be concerned with practicalities of craft above all, as well as scatological humor.

"Channeling God" is something prophets supposedly did - and according to Jewish tradition the last prophet was Malachi, who delivered his prophecies about 420 BC. A long time ago. I don't think channeling God or anything like it is relevant to the composition of Classical music, or any music for that matter, unless a composer sets that as his goal. As far as I know, Mozart did not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I don't. I think Mozart was extremely good at writing music that brought the stylistic elements of the 18th century period to a very high plane. HIs operas were both dramatically and musically the most advanced of his age, and his letters show him to be concerned with practicalities of craft above all, as well as scatological humor.

"Channeling God" is something prophets supposedly did - and according to Jewish tradition the last prophet was Malachi, who delivered his prophecies about 420 BC. A long time ago. I don't think channeling God or anything like it is relevant to the composition of Classical music, or any music for that matter, unless a composer sets that as his goal. As far as I know, Mozart did not.
I don't think you have to be concerned with it for it to occur.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I've known you long enough to know what you intend by constantly reviving or creating threads of titles and OPs with controversial statements about Mozart.
1. Trigger Mozart-naysayers to respond
2. Proceed to your "denouement"; "Beethoven is Better"
eg. Captainnumber36: "How do you feel about Beethoven Norman Bates? I think he's much more the expressionist when compared to Mozart. He has the tortured artist concept going for him, and much of his music is filled with a dark intellectual beauty." <from the thread Mozart is the Van Gogh of CM>
You are incorrect. That is not my intention! Mozart really is my favorite, his solo piano works being my favorites.
 
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