The "Bubbles" experiment - What is contemporary music worth?

61976 Views 2164 Replies 70 Participants Last post by Forster, 1 mo ago

chipia

Discussion Starter · Aug 11, 2021 (Edited)

Hi,

I would like to introduce you to an exciting experiment that I discovered.

It's about the Dutch composer Alexander Comitas. He wanted to test whether the modern atonal art music, which is usually promoted nowadays, can be distinguished from hitting random keys on the piano.

For this purpose he "composed" a piece called "Bubbles" by letting his young children, who had no musical education, play random notes on the keyboard. In the end, the children only divided the notes among the instruments. However, the composer did not tell anyone how the piece was made.

And indeed: Alexander Comitas received a grant of 3000 € for this composition! The jury, which consisted of a composer, a musicologist and a conductor, found the piece to be of high quality and even better than the previous (mostly tonal) compositions by Comitas.

You can take a closer look at the story under the following links:

'Bubbles' and Beyond: An Ongoing Musical Saga (Aristos, March 2013)

And here the composition Bubbles:

What do you think about this? I find the experiment very exciting, as it confirms what I had been thinking for a long time: A lot of modern classical music can hardly be distinguished from random notes.
I have seriously studied the composition methods of modern composers like Boulez, but came to the conclusion: No matter how "structured" these compositions seem on paper, they are irrelevant to the listener, since these structures are simply not audible.

However, instead of criticizing these compositions constructively, advocates of atonal music are often amazed at the "complex" and "innovative" structures of the compositions - even if they do not exist, as the Bubbles experiment shows.

I think that such experiments should be performed more often so that it becomes clear that the avantgarde mentality is causing damage to modern classical music and hindering the development of new music that actually relates to the way humans perceive music.

What do you think?

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Denerah Bathory

· #2,121 · 3 mo ago

Bwv 1080 said:
Finally, as it is Sunday, let’s listen to what the preachers are saying

My dear brothers and sisters,

I come to you today with a heavy heart, for I must speak out against the evil of modernist classical music. This so-called "music" is not of God, but is instead a product of the devil and his minions.

Modernist classical music is a rebellion against the traditional forms of music that have been handed down to us by our forefathers. It is a rejection of the beautiful melodies and harmonies that have been used for centuries to praise the Lord and bring people closer to Him. Instead, it is a chaotic jumble of sounds that seeks only to stir up confusion and division.

This music is not just a deviation from the norm, but is a direct attack on the foundations of our faith. It is a rebellion against the authority of God's Word and the teachings of the Bible. It is a rejection of the truth of the gospel, and an attempt to lead people away from the path of righteousness.

My dear friends, we must not be deceived by this evil music. We must not let it into our homes or our hearts. We must stand firm in our faith and reject this music, lest it lead us away from the Lord and into the darkness of sin and rebellion.

Let us instead seek out the music that is pleasing to God and that brings us closer to Him. Let us fill our homes and our hearts with the sweet melodies of praise and worship, and let us lift up our voices in song to the glory of our God.

May the Lord bless us and keep us in His grace, and may we always stand firm against the evil of modernist classical music. Amen.

This actually sounds great! If a priest said this I'd say amen.

Luchesi

· #2,122 · 3 mo ago

Bwv 1080 said:
Finally, as it is Sunday, let’s listen to what the preachers are saying

My dear brothers and sisters,

I come to you today with a heavy heart, for I must speak out against the evil of modernist classical music. This so-called "music" is not of God, but is instead a product of the devil and his minions.

Modernist classical music is a rebellion against the traditional forms of music that have been handed down to us by our forefathers. It is a rejection of the beautiful melodies and harmonies that have been used for centuries to praise the Lord and bring people closer to Him. Instead, it is a chaotic jumble of sounds that seeks only to stir up confusion and division.

This music is not just a deviation from the norm, but is a direct attack on the foundations of our faith. It is a rebellion against the authority of God's Word and the teachings of the Bible. It is a rejection of the truth of the gospel, and an attempt to lead people away from the path of righteousness.

My dear friends, we must not be deceived by this evil music. We must not let it into our homes or our hearts. We must stand firm in our faith and reject this music, lest it lead us away from the Lord and into the darkness of sin and rebellion.

Let us instead seek out the music that is pleasing to God and that brings us closer to Him. Let us fill our homes and our hearts with the sweet melodies of praise and worship, and let us lift up our voices in song to the glory of our God.

May the Lord bless us and keep us in His grace, and may we always stand firm against the evil of modernist classical music. Amen.

Priests probably said that in Paganini's time.

Before

· #2,123 · 2 mo ago

So this is the infamous bubbles thread I've heard so much about. Only 107 pages of reading to get caught up...

John O

· #2,124 · 2 mo ago

Luchesi said:
Priests probably said that in Paganini's time.

They definitely said it at the Council Of Trent 1545-1563

Enthusiast

· #2,125 · 2 mo ago

Before said:
So this is the infamous bubbles thread I've heard so much about. Only 107 pages of reading to get caught up...

Don't worry - just take any 4 pages (but don't reply to anything). The rest is the same being repeated ad nauseam.

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Forster

· #2,126 · 2 mo ago

"The trouble with this modern music is it's totally random and threatening civilisation as we know it."

"No, it isn't."

"Yes, it is."

"Besides, there's no such thing as random music."

"Yes, there is."

"No, there isn't."

[Repeat, ad nauseam]

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mikeh375

· #2,127 · 2 mo ago

oh gawd, not again.

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Bwv 1080

· #2,128 · 2 mo ago

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Before

· #2,129 · 2 mo ago

Has anyone ever seen someone have a legitimate change of mind or heart in these types of conversations? I'm always surprised - as I'm sure others are, and on the other side as well - that something can be as self-evidently true as the sun rising and there's no way whatsoever for someone that has a predisposed belief that "no, the sun doesn't rise" to be convinced that it actually does, even when you point to it and say - "there's the sun, it's rising!".

I'm grateful to the OP, the initial post is great! The whole idea reminds me of the youtube comments I often see on videos of modern/pomo/contemp music pieces that sound like geese being strangled in a half-baked thunderstorm that refer to the music in no uncertain terms as a..."Masterpiece". It also IMO speaks to the fact that extreme organization can often end up sounding like extreme disorganization to a general audience, of course depending on how it's implemented.

I will breeze through this thread and check out what I can just to get an idea of this corner of the TC community, their positions and how they're rationalizing them.

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mikeh375

· #2,130 · 2 mo ago

^^^ well as you seem to be going for it @Before, don't forget to add the 'film music is not classical' thread to your reading as that's a blast too.

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John O

· #2,131 · 2 mo ago

Before said:
Has anyone ever seen someone have a legitimate change of mind or heart in these types of conversations? I'm always surprised - as I'm sure others are, and on the other side as well - that something can be as self-evidently true as the sun rising and there's no way whatsoever for someone that has a predisposed belief that "no, the sun doesn't rise" to be convinced that it actually does, even when you point to it and say - "there's the sun, it's rising!".

I'm grateful to the OP, the initial post is great! The whole idea reminds me of the youtube comments I often see on videos of modern/pomo/contemp music pieces that sound like geese being strangled in a half-baked thunderstorm that refer to the music in no uncertain terms as a..."Masterpiece". It also IMO speaks to the fact that extreme organization can often end up sounding like extreme disorganization to a general audience, of course depending on how it's implemented.

I will breeze through this thread and check out what I can just to get an idea of this corner of the TC community, their positions and how they're rationalizing them.

The Sun doesn't rise - you move towards the horizon that was blocking your view of it because the Earth is round. You get precisely the same effect when travelling over relatively flat land or the sea towards a city with skyscrapers. Firstly you only see the top parts of the building but the lower floors come into view as you get closer.
Personally seen this near Tampa, Florida.

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Bwv 1080

· #2,132 · 2 mo ago

John O said:
The Sun doesn't rise - you move towards the horizon that was blocking your view of it because the Earth is round.

So the academic establishment would have you believe ...

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Before

· #2,133 · 2 mo ago

John O said:
The Sun doesn't rise - you move towards the horizon that was blocking your view of it because the Earth is round. You get precisely the same effect when travelling over relatively flat land or the sea towards a city with skyscrapers. Firstly you only see the top parts of the building but the lower floors come into view as you get closer.
Personally seen this near Tampa, Florida.

Thanks, John O., and understood; I meant as a daily event and colloquially speaking, you're point is taken though. Still, not everyone agrees to this take on the state of the earth and the heavens.

Forster

· #2,134 · 2 mo ago

Before said:
Has anyone ever seen someone have a legitimate change of mind or heart in these types of conversations?

If you're asking, does anyone post something to this effect:

"Oh, yes, now I see, of course. My bad. Thank you for putting me right"

Not very often, no.

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Bwv 1080

· #2,135 · 2 mo ago

Before said:
Still, not everyone agrees to this take on the state of the earth and the heavens.

Yep, those pointy-headed intellectuals that would have you believe Schoenberg is music also want you to think a spherical Earth rotates and orbits a much larger sun…

mmsbls

· #2,136 · 2 mo ago

Forster said:
If you're asking, does anyone post something to this effect:

"Oh, yes, now I see, of course. My bad. Thank you for putting me right"

Not very often, no.

I don't think we see those, who have argued intensely during a thread, eventually change their minds, but I suspect that others, who read the thread, may. I know I have done so.

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Forster

· #2,137 · 2 mo ago

mmsbls said:
I don't think we see those, who have argued intensely during a thread, eventually change their minds, but I suspect that others, who read the thread, may. I know I have done so.

Well, yes, I'm sure we can all own up to that. It's the posting of it as proof that matters.

Neo Romanza

· #2,138 · 2 mo ago

What a ridiculous thread. I mean...it's beyond ridiculous at this point. Anyone who holds onto some kind of moronic music ideology and puts it above another isn't a fan of music, but someone who would rather complain about it instead actually listening to it.

DaveM

· #2,139 · 2 mo ago

A virtual Zombie thread.

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mmsbls

· #2,140 · 2 mo ago

Forster said:
Well, yes, I'm sure we can all own up to that. It's the posting of it as proof that matters.

I actually think the value in threads such as these, to the extent there is value, comes from short segments where some members discuss, argue, or maybe bludgeon a point that makes others think. These threads can have a dozen or more pages of useless repetition and then a page of interesting comments. There is the famous thread, "What is the point of Atonal music?" It's actually one of my favorite TC threads even though we moderators were frequently called to task to keep things civil. A large percentage of the thread involves people banging heads, but there are gems contained within.

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