[Coach G]

I was recently watching a David Hurwitz Youtube video where he was evaluating Furtwangler's famous (or infamous) 1942 war-time recording of Beethoven's Symphony #9 "Choral". Despite the antiquated sound technology, I always found that recording to be very dramatic and powerful as the timpani is very prominent. Hurwitz doesn't see it that way, though. He says that Furtwangler turns Beethoven's 9th into a "timpani concerto". This led me to really think about the role that timpani should play in the interpretation of a symphony. To what extent should the timpani be allowed to explode, or remain restrained? Do some conductors allow the timpani to dominate too much on some recordings? Do other conductors not allow the timpani enough of the spot light? Once on an old episode of the TV show, Frasier, the snobbish and bickering brothers, Frasier and Niles, touched upon the subject. Frasier theorized that the timpani is like the engine of the orchestra; it pushes the music forward. Niles disagreed, and said, it's the conductor that drives the orchestra. Frasier then doubled down and said that the conductor is at the steering wheel, but the timpani remains the engine. What say you?

 

[Prodromides]

I'll defer to William Kraft - percussionist, composer, conductor - to be a 'last word' authority on this.

All of these works are superb, in my opinion, but I find that I like his piano concerto more than his timpani concerto ... plus Veils & Variations should be occuring in core Horn repertoire (sez me).

 

[Phil loves classical]

I have to agree with Hurwitz. The Furtwangler is unlistenable, but that is likely a recording issue. Here the timpani is constantly changing pitch, which I believe was new at the time.

 

[Monsalvat]

It's got to be somewhat prominent. Prominent enough to hold its own in the first movement of Beethoven's Seventh, or the second movement of Beethoven's Ninth, for instance. I think the issue with that Furtwängler recording was the technology, not Furtwängler. Here's a fun work featuring the timpani prominently, although not a timpani concerto:

 

[Coach G]

When I started listening to classical music as a teenager, I could hear just about any recording of a major work and be happy with it, even it was a second or third rate recording. This lasted a long time. As I've grown older and more sophisticated as a classical music listener, I've become more interested in dynamics and balance; how the conductor prepares the feast; too much spice and all you taste is spice; too little spice and the food tastes like nothing at all. Likewise, if the timpani is too prominent, you start to hear nothing but timpani. If the timpani is too restrained, the recording can seem dull and sterile. And I guess that goes for how all the flavors in the orchestra mix together. And some of it may be a matter of taste. I really like to hear a symphony by, say, Bruckner, Mahler, or Sibelius; that has some good slide trombone action in it. Percussion and trombone are not exactly the instruments that usually get the spot-light in a great monster or war-horse symphony, but the presence is very important in the framing and support they provide the strings and wood winds-I guess; because my literacy for the inner workings of music is limited.

 

[pianozach]

Love the timpani.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm Musical Director for a small Operetta troupe, and conduct our tiny pit orchestra from the keyboard.

Tiny translates to me on keyboard, a double bassist, a violinist, a multi-woodwind-instrumentalist (oboe, clarinets, flute, piccolo), and a percussionist that doubles on keyboard as well. Sometimes we add an additional flutist.

But our percussionist always has a couple of actual timpani, and it makes a huge difference.

 

[John O]

I have to agree with Hurwitz. The Furtwangler is unlistenable, but that is likely a recording issue. Here the timpani is constantly changing pitch, which I believe was new at the time.

Talking of Bartok and Timpani. Bartok sometimes uses Timpani as a punctuation point, such as in the 3rd Rondo movements of the Piano Concertos

 

[Coach G]

Talking of Bartok and Timpani. Bartok sometimes uses Timpani as a punctuation point, such as in the 3rd Rondo movements of the Piano Concertos

This is the kind of input I'm trying to seek out, and the analogy is very accessible to a guy like me who isn't quite familiar with the more esoteric musical jargon. So, then, the timpani or percussion in general can be used as an accent mark to highlight the emotion in a given passage. Here I'm thinking of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries. The first time around the main theme is thrilling enough but then on the final go around the timpani and cymbals really cut loose and raise the roof on it. On the other hand, there are those clashing cymbals during the lovely Sanctus movement of Berlioz' Requiem, that need to be heard to underline the the powerful tenor solo, but it can't be so loud as to draw too much attention from the heavenly atmosphere that Berlioz creates.

Edited as result of afterthoughts.

 

[TwoFlutesOneTrumpet]

I love the timpani and to me it is an essential ingredient to a great recording. I like it to be prominent but not overbearing and definitely not thin. A great example of excellent timpani recording is Karajan's 1977 Beethoven 9th. It is amazing throughout but where it really makes this the top choice among many excellent 9s is the ending of the last movement, where its prominence gives the music so much more excitement and exuberance than I've heard in any other recording.

 

[John O]

This is the kind of input I'm trying to seek out, and the analogy is very accessible to a guy like me who isn't quite familiar with the more esoteric musical jargon. So, then, the timpani or percussion in general can be used as an accent mark to highlight the emotion in a given passage. Here I'm thinking of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries. The first time around the main theme is thrilling enough but then on the final go around the timpani and cymbals really cut loose and raise the roof on it. On the other hand, there are those clashing cymbals during the lovely Sanctus movement of Berlioz' Requiem, that need to be heard to underline the the powerful tenor solo, but it can't be so loud as to draw too much attention from the heavenly atmosphere that Berlioz creates.

Edited as result of afterthoughts.

Do you know Nielsen's 4th symphony where there is a 'battle' between the two timpani players in the last movement?

 

[Bruckner Anton II]

I agree with David Hurwitz though I haven't watched his video. Usually the poor balance of the recorded sound is to be blamed not the conductor.

 

[Op.123]

With the Furtwangler recording it's as much an issue of mic placement as it is letting the timpani play overly loudly. But I find the more aggressive timpani works well with the interpretation even if it is a little too forward in the sonic picture. Coincidentally I find the recording in fairly good sound for a live performance of the time.

 

[Aries]

I was recently watching a David Hurwitz Youtube video where he was evaluating Furtwangler's famous (or infamous) 1942 war-time recording of Beethoven's Symphony #9 "Choral". Despite the antiquated sound technology, I always found that recording to be very dramatic and powerful as the timpani is very prominent. Hurwitz doesn't see it that way, though. He says that Furtwangler turns Beethoven's 9th into a "timpani concerto".

Furtwängler is right, Hurwitz is wrong. The 1942 is the best performance of the ninth I know, and the good audibility of the percussion is one reason. Despite the recording quality you get a better idea of the structure of the music by listening to this performance. Hurwitz is an angry and vicious critic.

 

[David Lilly]

Before Timpani could be tuned 'on the spot', it's primary role was to reinforce the tonic and dominant of the given key signature at the moments the composer felt were critical or wanted more "oomph", to phrase it an informal manner. Earlier symphonic works typically had 2, one tuned to tonic, the other tuned to dominant. As things progressed after Beethoven, it sort of began to become "anything goes" with the Timpani as they could be tuned on stage and discreetly, and composers started experimenting with different mallets that gave the instrument a lot of unique tones that suited softer passages of music.
I personally think a traditional approach is best for timpani - I enjoy it used to reinforce chords or scale tones that need a touch more emphasis- I also enjoy it being used to accent specific rhythmic motifs, but in a tasteful manner that is reserved for special moments. Too much becomes taxing on the listener's ear. Again though, I stress this last paragraph is a matter of personal taste.

 

[larold]

Timpani can be the main dish going back to the classical era.

 

[MatthewWeflen]

I'm OK with turning nearly anything into a "timpani concerto," at least anything that can incorporate it in terms of mood (and in which it is written, of course). Timpani are cool, exciting, and fun. It punctuates emotional moments and gets the blood pumping. It's one of the first things I look for in a recording (how good do the timpani sound, how forward are they in the mix?) and one of my favorite things to hear in live concerts.

Viva Timpani!

 

[Neo Romanza]

The timpani plays whatever role is assigned to it from the composer. The end.

 

[SONNET CLV]

I was recently watching a David Hurwitz Youtube video where he ... says that Furtwangler turns Beethoven's 9th into a "timpani concerto". ... What say you?

I say that Hurwitz is obviously wrong.
Everybody knows that Beethoven's real "timpani concerto" is the misnamed Violin Concerto in D.

 

[hammeredklavier]

Famous timpani opening of Also Sprach Sarathustra at Bilkent Symphony Orchestra with Turkish conductor Murat Cem Orhan