[BalalaikaBoy]

How is ramming versatile singers into narrow fachs intellectually nuanced? How is stating categorically that "Caballe is a spinto, not a lyric" intellectually nuanced? I believe that nuance is the one characteristic most conspicuously absent from such statements, and that nuance is the habit of thought I am nigh-unto-desperately pleading for when we talk about voices.

When I was a college student I was justly proud of my ability to make fine discriminations intellectually, and to break down reality into nice clean categories. Then, at a certain point, I realized that those categories I thought reality consisted of were inventions of my own mind, tools I needed to help me find my way, but which became hindrances to further understanding if I held on to them once they'd served their purpose. That realization was liberating. Now, I am far more interested in discovering what realities lie outside conventional categories than in seeing how much of the world I can stuff into them.

There are some singers who fit rather neatly into the conventional "fach" classifications. There is no question that Birgit Nilsson was correctly described as a hochdramatische sopran, simply because she was a great Brunnhilde and Elektra, and because that was virtually the only kind of singing she truly excelled at. Besides, it's a narrow and easily defined category with few inhabitants. Some things are sufficiently lacking in nuance to be talked about so categorically. But in those cases there tends to be little controversy and the discussion is quickly over. Anything more nuanced than that, and we'd best crawl out of our classificatory boxes and learn to qualify our statements. Debates over whether someone is "really" a strong lyric soprano or a lyrico-spinto soprano are only going to make the visitors from other galaxies wonder why they bothered coming all this way to study us.

But - I know - "What-EVVAAH!" :tiphat:

How is it "ramming a singer into a narrow fach" when I clearly listed examples of lyric, coloratura and spinto rep she performed well? You seem to be under the impression that my concept of fach is far more rigid and narrow than it actually is (fach is a singer's home base, not necessarily their entire rep. I could give you an insanely long list of well-performed arias by singers of a different fach. hell, when I posted my list of top 5 Bel Raggios, all 5 singers were different fachs singing the same thing )

Honestly, you make it sound like I'm some stern Prussian Frau trying to march singers into a rigid, military school. That isn't and has never been the point XD

 

[DavidA]

I don't think Sutherland's voice, as such, was a major problem in bel canto repertoire. Her early Lucias, as well as her Baroque work of that period, are magnificent pieces of singing. She actually enunciated rather well then, and her phrasing was clear and direct. I think that from a purely vocal standpoint she was perfectly well-suited to Donizetti and Bellini, and that her defects were musical and stylistic. The wilted, mooning phrasing compromised the musical line and, together with the incomprehensible diction, also compromised the music's potential for specific expression. If we can blame Bonynge for this, we might say that he tried to turn her into a giant canary. There's plenty of recorded evidence that she was more than that, and had she come under the influence of Callas's mentor Serafin we might have had quite a superior artist. For those who simply glory in her vocal brilliance, this is no doubt unimportant, whereas those of us who demand that opera be as musically and dramatically integral as it is vocally exciting will enjoy Sutherland very selectively.

Bonynge was Sutherland's coach before and after they married. We must give him credit for turning the voice into the incredible instrument it became. The downside was that he later became Sutherland's conductor, and hence she didn't tend to work with the great conductors of her day. But she was obviously happy working within this mainly Bel Canto repertoire. One exception was the Mehta Turandot where she gives an astounding performance which shows how big the voice was.

 

[BalalaikaBoy]

I'd like to propose some new contestants for the assoluta fach

1) Marisa Galvany

2) Leyla Gencer

3) Alexandrina Pendatchanska(her technique isn't quite to my liking, but in terms of sheer vocal capabilities, I'd say she is a contender)

4) Shirley Verrett

 

[Woodduck]

I'd like to propose some new contestants for the assoluta fach

1) Marisa Galvany

2) Leyla Gencer

3) Alexandrina Pendatchanska(her technique isn't quite to my liking, but in terms of sheer vocal capabilities, I'd say she is a contender)

4) Shirley Verrett

Galvany is a monochromatic singer. She has basically one quality of expression: maniacal. Lucia as Lady Macbeth. Her coloratura is hit or miss, OK when she can ride her powerful vibrato but terrible in the Norma excerpt. She has no trill. Can you imagine that voice as Amina? More like Santuzza, regardless of the role. Far from "assoluta," if the term actually means more than high, low, and loud.

Gencer was a strong artist but not exactly a paragon of musical poise and style. Versatile yes, but that clip's attempt to portray her as all those different types, from lyric coloratura to contralto, is absurd. Still, despite a certain roughness, a better candidate for "assoluta" than Galvany.

There's an unidentified mezzo in the Pendatchanska clip. It's mostly a lot of loud coloratura singing anyway. I think this is more revealing:

Well, it isn't bel canto, is it? Such uneven tonal emission, and a weird, wild, bumpy ride, musically speaking. She does have a trill. I think her Lucia is stylistically saner and technically better, though the approach to high notes is sometimes crude and the phrasing not very imaginative or finely drawn:

She has another one of these voices, so common nowadays, that I couldn't necessarily pick out in a lineup.

Well. Now for the real deal. You only have to listen to Shirley Verrett for a few moments to hear that she completely outclasses the others in every way. I'd also say she's the only true falcon in the group, with a range encompassing securely both soprano and mezzo. She had the voice, technique, musicianship and sense of style to sing virtually anything, beautifully and memorably.

I'd just like to add this, a performance worthy to stand beside assoluta Rosa Ponselle's "O nume tutelar" as an exemplar of the fine art of singing:

My verdict? One out of four: Shirley Verrett, Assoluta.

 

[BalalaikaBoy]

Galvany is a monochromatic singer. She has basically one quality of expression: maniacal. Lucia as Lady Macbeth. Her coloratura is hit or miss, OK when she can ride her powerful vibrato but terrible in the Norma excerpt. She has no trill. Can you imagine that voice as Amina? More like Santuzza, regardless of the role. Far from "assoluta," if the term actually means more than high, low, and loud.

I'll settle for "unrealized assoluta potential" (she had the sheer vocal mechanism)

Gencer was a strong artist but not exactly a paragon of musical poise and style. Versatile yes, but that clip's attempt to portray her as all those different types, from lyric coloratura to contralto, is absurd. Still, despite a certain roughness, a better candidate for "assoluta" than Galvany.

admittedly, I thought the video was a little silly as well, but it captured the versatility at least.

There's an unidentified mezzo in the Pendatchanska clip. It's mostly a lot of loud coloratura singing anyway. I think this is more revealing:

Well, it isn't bel canto, is it? Such uneven tonal emission, and a weird, wild, bumpy ride, musically speaking. She does have a trill. I think her Lucia is stylistically saner and technically better, though the approach to high notes is sometimes crude and the phrasing not very imaginative or finely drawn:

She has another one of these voices, so common nowadays, that I couldn't necessarily pick out in a lineup.

she is about as bel canto as Gheorghiu is Turandot. no argument there :lol:

Well. Now for the real deal. You only have to listen to Shirley Verrett for a few moments to hear that she completely outclasses the others in every way. I'd also say she's the only true falcon in the group, with a range encompassing securely both soprano and mezzo. She had the voice, technique, musicianship and sense of style to sing virtually anything, beautifully and memorably.

I'd just like to add this, a performance worthy to stand beside assoluta Rosa Ponselle's "O nume tutelar" as an exemplar of the fine art of singing:

glad we agree there. easily one of the finest singers of the 20th century

 

[BaritoneAssoluto]

Galvany is a monochromatic singer. She has basically one quality of expression: maniacal. Lucia as Lady Macbeth. Her coloratura is hit or miss, OK when she can ride her powerful vibrato but terrible in the Norma excerpt. She has no trill. Can you imagine that voice as Amina? More like Santuzza, regardless of the role. Far from "assoluta," if the term actually means more than high, low, and loud.

Gencer was a strong artist but not exactly a paragon of musical poise and style. Versatile yes, but that clip's attempt to portray her as all those different types, from lyric coloratura to contralto, is absurd. Still, despite a certain roughness, a better candidate for "assoluta" than Galvany.

There's an unidentified mezzo in the Pendatchanska clip. It's mostly a lot of loud coloratura singing anyway. I think this is more revealing:

Well, it isn't bel canto, is it? Such uneven tonal emission, and a weird, wild, bumpy ride, musically speaking. She does have a trill. I think her Lucia is stylistically saner and technically better, though the approach to high notes is sometimes crude and the phrasing not very imaginative or finely drawn:

She has another one of these voices, so common nowadays, that I couldn't necessarily pick out in a lineup.

Well. Now for the real deal. You only have to listen to Shirley Verrett for a few moments to hear that she completely outclasses the others in every way. I'd also say she's the only true falcon in the group, with a range encompassing securely both soprano and mezzo. She had the voice, technique, musicianship and sense of style to sing virtually anything, beautifully and memorably.

I'd just like to add this, a performance worthy to stand beside assoluta Rosa Ponselle's "O nume tutelar" as an exemplar of the fine art of singing:

My verdict? One out of four: Shirley Verrett, Assoluta.

I've classified Mrs. Verrett as a Proto-Assoluta, meaning she's got assoluta-like qualities but her coloratura wasn't as stable as say a Callas or Sutherland. I think Soprano Falcon works for her best. While she had great high notes, some of those high notes were quite strident and often weaker when compared to her counterpart, Grace Bumbry (who was often afraid of her own high notes as well and didn't have the stronger coloratura either.)

 

[Woodduck]

I've classified Mrs. Verrett as a Proto-Assoluta, meaning she's got assoluta-like qualities but her coloratura wasn't as stable as say a Callas or Sutherland. I think Soprano Falcon works for her best. While she had great high notes, some of those high notes were quite strident and often weaker when compared to her counterpart, Grace Bumbry (who was often afraid of her own high notes as well and didn't have the stronger coloratura either.)

Well, nobody's perfect - certainly not Callas, after her voice started to go. Verrett did after all begin as a mezzo (I believe) and conquered soprano territory like no other mezzo I can think of, and Callas didn't have the body and solidity down low to do the same in the mezzo repertoire, despite some successful late recordings of mezzo arias. I'd say Callas deserves the "assoluta" title more than any other singer of the postwar period by dint of combining vocal range, flexibility, dramatic power and stylistic versatility, but that Verrett comes closer to her than anyone else, and even surpasses Callas in the consistent beauty of her tone.

I'm not really "classifying" anybody, since we all have our own ideas about what qualities are necessary, and in what proportion, to merit a particular term. Terms are partly subjective, and "assoluta" must certainly be. If we wanted to be really tough, we could nominate just one "assoluta" and find all the rest wanting! I have a hard time withholding the honor from Verrett, one of the most accomplished and versatile singers of her time or, probably, any other time.

 

[BalalaikaBoy]

Well, nobody's perfect - certainly not Callas, after her voice started to go. Verrett did after all begin as a mezzo (I believe) and conquered soprano territory like no other mezzo I can think of, and Callas didn't have the body and solidity down low to do the same in the mezzo repertoire, despite some successful late recordings of mezzo arias. I'd say Callas deserves the "assoluta" title more than any other singer of the postwar period by dint of combining vocal range, flexibility, and dramatic power and versatility, but that Verrett comes closer to her than anyone else, and even surpasses Callas in the consistent beauty of her tone.

^this, except I actually prefer Verrett to Callas. Verrett's tone was pleasant, easy, relaxed, natural. Whenever Callas sung, all I could hear was pain. This is not necessarily a bad thing. In many instances it worked wonderfully, especially if one was in a blood-and-guts sort of mood from the start, but I have a general preference for smoothness and ease above emotion.

 

[Seattleoperafan]

Well, nobody's perfect - certainly not Callas, after her voice started to go. Verrett did after all begin as a mezzo (I believe) and conquered soprano territory like no other mezzo I can think of, and Callas didn't have the body and solidity down low to do the same in the mezzo repertoire, despite some successful late recordings of mezzo arias. I'd say Callas deserves the "assoluta" title more than any other singer of the postwar period by dint of combining vocal range, flexibility, dramatic power and stylistic versatility, but that Verrett comes closer to her than anyone else, and even surpasses Callas in the consistent beauty of her tone.

I'm not really "classifying" anybody, since we all have our own ideas about what qualities are necessary, and in what proportion, to merit a particular term. Terms are partly subjective, and "assoluta" must certainly be. If we wanted to be really tough, we could nominate just one "assoluta" and find all the rest wanting! I have a hard time withholding the honor from Verrett, one of the most accomplished and versatile singers of her time or, probably, any other time.

Verrett comes as close as anyone. Her voice was simply one of the most beautiful ever. I always felt cheated when she sang soprano as her lower register was so amazingly beautiful. She was one of the greatest Arsaces ever but was also a killer Norma. I even heard her sing a high D very well in the trio of Act II of Norma. Not denying Callas' fabulousness, but Verrett's voice to my ears was much more beautiful.
I would like to mention another singer who I believe deserves some mention. Dimitrova, who was equally adept as Turandot, Norma, and Amneris. She had an astonishingly huge voice, distinctive in sound, solid from killer high C's to chest voice, and more than adequate at coloratura.She was one of the great Amneris's of her generation. Some don't like her voice, but I find it thrilling.
Eileen Farrell was another singer who came close when she was young, but after a lot of Wagner her high notes failed her later in her career. Her coloratura was of astonishing dexterity, her voice as big as they come, and in Interrupted Melody sang mezzo and soprano roles equally well. in her retirement she recorded many pop songs all in the contralto register.

 

[BalalaikaBoy]

Verrett comes as close as anyone. Her voice was simply one of the most beautiful ever. I always felt cheated when she sang soprano as her lower register was so amazingly beautiful. She was one of the greatest Arsaces ever but was also a killer Norma. I even heard her sing a high D very well in the trio of Act II of Norma. Not denying Callas' fabulousness, but Verrett's voice to my ears was much more beautiful.

^pretty much this

I would like to mention another singer who I believe deserves some mention. Dimitrova, who was equally adept as Turandot, Norma, and Amneris. She had an astonishingly huge voice, distinctive in sound, solid from killer high C's to chest voice, and more than adequate at coloratura.She was one of the great Amneris's of her generation. Some don't like her voice, but I find it thrilling.

an amazing singer. I would have mentioned her myself; however, she lacked the light coloratura and more tender/lyrical component to be an assoluta.

 

[Woodduck]

Verrett comes as close as anyone. Her voice was simply one of the most beautiful ever. I always felt cheated when she sang soprano as her lower register was so amazingly beautiful. She was one of the greatest Arsaces ever but was also a killer Norma. I even heard her sing a high D very well in the trio of Act II of Norma. Not denying Callas' fabulousness, but Verrett's voice to my ears was much more beautiful.
I would like to mention another singer who I believe deserves some mention. Dimitrova, who was equally adept as Turandot, Norma, and Amneris. She had an astonishingly huge voice, distinctive in sound, solid from killer high C's to chest voice, and more than adequate at coloratura.She was one of the great Amneris's of her generation. Some don't like her voice, but I find it thrilling.
Eileen Farrell was another singer who came close when she was young, but after a lot of Wagner her high notes failed her later in her career. Her coloratura was of astonishing dexterity, her voice as big as they come, and in Interrupted Melody sang mezzo and soprano roles equally well. in her retirement she recorded many pop songs all in the contralto register.

I agree that Verrett's voice was more beautiful in basic timbre than Callas.' What Callas had, more than any singer I can think of, was the ability to alter her timbre for expressive purposes, to the point of finding different "voices" for different characters. In her Butterfly she carries off the virtuoso feat of transforming her voice completely over the course of the work from that of naive young girl to tragic woman, and the effect is devastatingly powerful. In vocal acting she remains in a class by herself.

I was thinking of Eileen Farrell as a candidate for "assoluta," but as you point out the high notes became difficult, as they did with Ponselle, Flagstad, Traubel, and other sopranos with rich low registers and dramatic power. They all became, essentially, mezzo-sopranos of great beauty, but their soprano years were spectacular.

Callas, by the way, was impressed with Farrell. She once said, "The Met can hardly be considered a serious artistic institution. They don't even have Farrell."

 

[Seattleoperafan]

Might I suggest that the three singers who I would say came closest to the Soprano Assoluta defintion were fleeting phenomena in three great careers. Ponselle in her 20's when she was still secure up top and Horne as she was transitioning into mezzo parts and was engaged to sing Lucretia Borga in Carnegie Hall. Lastly, Farrell in her thirties. All three at that time in their careers HAD IT ALL. Top to bottom with coloratura to boot. Capable of incredible lyrical singing but possessing huge voices. What do you say??? All three had voices that migrated south as they matured.

 

[BalalaikaBoy]

Might I suggest that the three singers who I would say came closest to the Soprano Assoluta defintion were fleeting phenomena in three great careers. Ponselle in her 20's when she was still secure up top and Horne as she was transitioning into mezzo parts and was engaged to sing Lucretia Borga in Carnegie Hall. Lastly, Farrell in her thirties. All three at that time in their careers HAD IT ALL. Top to bottom with coloratura to boot. Capable of incredible lyrical singing but possessing huge voices. What do you say??? All three had voices that migrated south as they matured.

even in her glorious Immolation Scene, Horne still lacks the security above the staff and never displays ease of coloratura at the top of the range like an assoluta.

 

[Seattleoperafan]

even in her glorious Immolation Scene, Horne still lacks the security above the staff and never displays ease of coloratura at the top of the range like an assoluta.

The Immolation Scene was in 67. The period I had in mind was more like '61 when she first sang with Sutherland, and might have only been for a few years.She was still wowing people with her Wozzeck at this point in her career up until 64. This is all hypothetical, so no way to know. She did have a secure C in her Norma with Sutherland at the start of her career. She likely didn't keep that for long. By 67 her voice had darkened to my ears. Even when she sang soprano she said she always had that extra extension on the bottom of her voice and sang tenor in choir very easily when she was a soprano in school.

 

[Pugg]

Might I suggest that the three singers who I would say came closest to the Soprano Assoluta defintion were fleeting phenomena in three great careers. Ponselle in her 20's when she was still secure up top and Horne as she was transitioning into mezzo parts and was engaged to sing Lucretia Borga in Carnegie Hall. Lastly, Farrell in her thirties. All three at that time in their careers HAD IT ALL. Top to bottom with coloratura to boot. Capable of incredible lyrical singing but possessing huge voices. What do you say??? All three had voices that migrated south as they matured.

You may, and I agree with you with whole my heart .:tiphat:

 

[Woodduck]

Might I suggest that the three singers who I would say came closest to the Soprano Assoluta defintion were fleeting phenomena in three great careers. Ponselle in her 20's when she was still secure up top and Horne as she was transitioning into mezzo parts and was engaged to sing Lucretia Borga in Carnegie Hall. Lastly, Farrell in her thirties. All three at that time in their careers HAD IT ALL. Top to bottom with coloratura to boot. Capable of incredible lyrical singing but possessing huge voices. What do you say??? All three had voices that migrated south as they matured.

Ponselle's voice didn't really migrate south. She just lost her high C. She was still singing most of her rep in her mid-thirties, and the rest of her voice didn't change very much. She did say that had she not retired she'd have continued as a mezzo. Here's a great broadcast of "Ritorna vincitor" from 1936, when she was 39 (there's a measure missing toward the end, unfortunately):

Oh those uncanny diminuendos! But now listen to her, accompanying herself at home in "Senza mamma" in 1953. She was 55!

I don't remember Horne as a soprano. Guess I wasn't listening to her then.

 

[Seattleoperafan]

Horne was in the backwaters of Germany most of her soprano career. She made no recordings that I know of. Wozzeck put her on the map in the States.. Ponselle's Senza Mamma was amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Seattleoperafan]

Woodduck: you can find anything on Youtube! Here is a concert Horne did in '61 as a soprano:

. She actually sounds a lot like Eileen Farrell here. The top was more flexible and solid, but you could tell the bottom was there if she needed it. The top was different than it was in the 67 Immolation Scene.

 

[BalalaikaBoy]

There's an unidentified mezzo in the Pendatchanska clip. It's mostly a lot of loud coloratura singing anyway. I think this is more revealing:

there are recordings where she sounds more like a mezzo, but in other ones (especially earlier), the voice has zero mezzo in it.

 

[Woodduck]

there are recordings where she sounds more like a mezzo, but in other ones (especially earlier), the voice has zero mezzo in it.

I meant that there really is a mezzo in that clip. There are two singers there.