[emiellucifuge]

This is kind of a conflict between left and right politics:

Right. Do you believe that the free market, or in this case the members themselves will manage to arrive at the best list independently?

OR

Left. Do you believe we need to elect a system which should then decide for us?

In this case im leaning to the right.

 

[joen_cph]

Concerning the free market: If we take a major lump of the main-repertoire big-sellers

- say 12 selected Haydns, 6 Mozarts, 9 Beethovens, 3 Schuberts, 2 Mendelssohns, 4 Schumanns, 4 Brahms, 2 Berliozes, 7 Tchaikovskys, 7 selected Bruckners, 9 Dvoraks, 10 Mahlers, 3 Rachs, 10 selected Shost´vich, 3 Prokofievs, 3 Sibeliuses, 3 Nielsens, 2 Elgars, 4 selected V-Williams

- then we will already have around 103 symphonies - and no space for anything else. This doesn´t even include many well-known or "important" symphony composers, like for instance Borodin, Liszt, Ives, Scriabin, Messiaen, Berio, Honegger, Martinu, Schnittke, or even just a sample from those with a substantially large symphony output like Langgaard, Holmboe, Tubin, Gloria Coates, Boccherini or Myaskovsky etc. ...

Whether the symphonies of, say Schumann, have a number of 29, 41 or 67 on a TC-list probably won´t matter that much to anyone ? ...

Of course, none of us really know the hundreds of recorded symphonies by heart (actually there must be at least 1500 different recorded ones, I guess, which is probably even too low a number), but the core list above is reasonably well-known to many people, and shouldn´t there also be an element of potential exploration and widening of the perspective here also ?

Therefore some sort of a limit for each composer should be established - or at least the posters should take this into consideration ...

Whereas it´s allright with me if the quota for periods / styles are abolished, since most posters do not find it necessary. (This was written before the entry above, though - of course I like the idea of 20 after 1900 - or perhaps even 5 - 10 after 1930 !!!)

 

[emiellucifuge]

Well i for one do not believe all of Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Dvorak. But yes that is quite a dilemna, we could - due to the vast repertory available - consider creating a list greater than 100?

To most people, i agree, it wouldnt matter exactly which number a symphony gets. What does matter is which bracket it falls in. Is it a top 10, top 15, or a top 50 symphony? So a fairoynhigh degree of precision is needed.

 

[Almaviva]

I don't think there should be restrictions on era or anything like that. It would ruin the whole premise, which is the top recommended symphonies. It isn't the top recommended symphonies provided there are 15 modern, 40 romantic and 45 classical. It's just what symphonies we think should be on the list. It would also eliminate the need for arguing about it. I see no reason to put in "quotas" (though I do agree with limiting to 5 per composer, so Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven don't unreasonably dominate the list as they'd be sure to otherwise...).

I'm in.

World, you have just contradicted yourself.

 

[Almaviva]

Concerning the free market: If we take a major lump of the main-repertoire big-sellers

- say 12 selected Haydns, 6 Mozarts, 9 Beethovens, 3 Schuberts, 2 Mendelssohns, 4 Schumanns, 4 Brahms, 2 Berliozes, 7 Tchaikovskys, 7 selected Bruckners, 9 Dvoraks, 10 Mahlers, 3 Rachs, 10 selected Shost´vich, 3 Prokofievs, 3 Sibeliuses, 3 Nielsens, 2 Elgars, 4 selected V-Williams

- then we will already have around 103 symphonies - and no space for anything else. This doesn´t even include many well-known or "important" symphony composers, like for instance Borodin, Liszt, Ives, Scriabin, Messiaen, Berio, Honegger, Martinu, Schnittke, or even just a sample from those with a substantially large symphony output like Langgaard, Holmboe, Tubin, Gloria Coates, Boccherini or Myaskovsky etc. ...

Whether the symphonies of, say Schumann, have a number of 29, 41 or 67 on a TC-list probably won´t matter that much to anyone ? ...

Of course, none of us really know the hundreds of recorded symphonies by heart (actually there must be at least 1500 different recorded ones, I guess, which is probably even too low a number), but the core list above is reasonably well-known to many people, and shouldn´t there also be an element of potential exploration and widening of the perspective here also ?

Therefore some sort of a limit for each composer should be established - or at least the posters should take this into consideration ...

Whereas it´s allright with me if the quota for periods / styles are abolished, since most posters do not find it necessary. (This was written before the entry above, though - of course I like the idea of 20 after 1900 - or perhaps even 5 - 10 after 1930 !!!)

Maybe the remedy for your points would be to establish a list of the 150 top recommended symphonies.

 

[Weston]

I'd like to play, whatever the rules. Symphonies are my bread and butter though I probably only know a tiny fraction of them well. Most of mine will be the die hard war horses, but I have a few semi-obscure ones in mind too.

 

[Air]

I'd say no restrictions at all, or else this list is just...

 

[Sid James]

Why not do a seperate top 100 for each era - classical, romantic and modern/contemporary? That would be more interesting, and allow people who know more about one or other era to contribute more fruitfully. It's more complicated, but ultimately would allow more room for us to manouvre to allow the less popular guys in - I don't see the use of a list of the old warhorses. Who cares about a top 100 that is as dull as dishwater?...

 

[Genoveva]

So far in this present thread I count 14 potential contributors. Is that enough? I wouldn't have thought so.

I haven't yet seen any voting criteria. Are we simply to vote for our favourite symphonies? If so, how are the results likely to differ from looking at general popularity figures for symphonies (for example radio station polls)?

 

[David58117]

So when and how does this get started? I'm curious how it turns out, but honestly a bit pessimistic. The greats are just too big, the time span too wide, taste too subjective, the number of obscure composers who wrote great stuff too many. I suppose that could make for interesting discussions though!

 

[emiellucifuge]

Before we start there are some issues to be considered:

Do we take up Andres suggestion?
Do we take a list with more than 100 symphonies?
Do we allow restrictions?

My firm belief is no, yes no. As the symphonic repertoire is one of the most expansive in music, it makes sense to create a list of 150 symphonies. This allows a far greater range that may be more representative and includes each era.

If nobody has any objections (?), then id like to begin by asking you all to list your top 5 nominations in ranked order!

 

[emiellucifuge]

So far in this present thread I count 14 potential contributors. Is that enough? I wouldn't have thought so.

I haven't yet seen any voting criteria. Are we simply to vote for our favourite symphonies? If so, how are the results likely to differ from looking at general popularity figures for symphonies (for example radio station polls)?

Hi Genoveva, i have just opened the first segment of nomination, but will gladly explain the rules:

We take it in segments. For each segment, all of us will be asked to rank their (next) best five. The symphonies with the most votes will be included, ties will be broken using a ranking point system (1=5, 2=4 etc...). From this we can draw our list for that segment, any symphonies which gained a significant number of points/votes but did not place will automatically qualify for the next segment and so on..

From those 10 that have made into the present segment, we will then ask you to take your top 5 And rank them. From this then using a similar method to the one above, the definitive ranking fir the segment can be drawn, and then we can move on.

Jhar has probably explained it much clearer. If youd care to look its on page 26(?) of the opera thread linked.

 

[Genoveva]

Hi Genoveva, i have just opened the first segment of nomination, but will gladly explain the rules:

I wasn't asking about the voting procedure as such, more the voting criteria for making selections. I assume that we simply list our personal favourite symphonies?

If so, here's my top 5 list:

1. Beethoven 9
2. Schubert 9
3. Beethoven 5
4. Schubert 8
5. Mozart 40

 

[emiellucifuge]

Yes, the criteria you use to formulate your own nominations are entirely up to you.

Here are mine:
1. Beethoven 5
2. Beethoven 7
3. Mahler 6
4. Schubert 8
5. Shostakovich 5

 

[Almaviva]

1. Beethoven's 9th
2. Beethoven's 5th
3. Tchaikowsky's 5th
4. Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique
5. Mahler's 6th

 

[Ravellian]

I'd be more than happy to participate. But shouldn't we expand the list of nominations per person to 10? It seems that we will not be able to get a representative list of the 100 best works if we only do 5 a a time... we would probably need upwards of 70-80 participants if were do it that way and have any semblance of accuracy.

1. Tchaikovsky 6 in B minor
2. Beethoven 3 in Eb major
3. Mahler 5
4. Schubert 9 in C major
5. Schumann 4 in D minor
6. Haydn 92 in G major
7. Mahler 9
8. Tchaikovsky 4 in F minor
9. Mozart 40 in G minor
10. Shostakovich 5 in D minor

 

[Almaviva]

I'd be more than happy to participate. But shouldn't we expand the list of nominations per person to 10? It seems that we will not be able to get a representative list of the 100 best works if we only do 5 a a time... we would probably need upwards of 70-80 participants if were do it that way and have any semblance of accuracy.

1. Tchaikovsky 6 in B minor
2. Beethoven 3 in Eb major
3. Mahler 5
4. Schubert 9 in C major
5. Schumann 4 in D minor
6. Haydn 92 in G major
7. Mahler 9
8. Tchaikovsky 4 in F minor
9. Mozart 40 in G minor
10. Shostakovich 5 in D minor

I don't see what the number of nominations per bracket has to do with accuracy. Remember, these are only nominations for the first 1-10 bracket, there will be more nominations for subsequent brackets. We got about 15 participants already, more to join, so, 5 times 15 is 75 (of course, minus the duplicates), still plenty to choose from to get to the final 1-10 list for the first bracket. Clogging each bracket too much with 10 nominations per participant only complicates the job of the person tallying the results. As for accuracy, it's an eluding concept. The list will be what the users of this site recommend, not more, not less. It will be "accurate" in the sense that it will be what the participants do recommend, but not necessarily the "best" symphonies which is a subjective label.

 

[emiellucifuge]

Hi Ravellian.

Just to clarify: the rankings we are posting at the moment will only apply to our first segment, or our top 10. This is a method that is working very well in the opera thread currently. I can only accept the first five you posted, but please feel free to resubmit the rest of your list at a later stage or alter it as you wish.

 

[Almaviva]

Hi Ravellian.

Just to clarify: the rankings we are posting at the moment will only apply to our first segment, or our top 10. This is a method that is working very well in the opera thread currently. I can only accept the first five you posted, but please feel free to resubmit the rest of your list at a later stage or alter it as you wish.

Yep. The best way to get this going is to... get it going. If we debate the method for too long, we'll get to dozens of different opinions on how it should be done without it actually getting done. I think you've opened enough space for methodology discussions then got it going, and since you're the person who came up with the idea and has been organizing it, I believe at this stage people should just stick with what you're doing. Like we've seen in the Opera forum, people had all sorts of objections and were afraid that the list would be faultive for one reason or another, then jhar got it going and everybody was pretty delighted with the first 20, with no zebras or questionable choices making it. So people should just trust the process, and realize that for these symphonies to make it high on the list they'll need to gather significant support, which *is* an indication of their worth; at least, in the opinion of the participants, which is exactly the point of the thread.

Another point of the thread is the debate of the relative merit of different works, so, like I did in the opera thread, I encourage people here to post a little blurb to support their choices; it makes for a much more interesting thread. Like I said, I'm not an expert so I can't really defend my choices other than saying that I like the five symphonies that I picked, but there are learned musicians here who *can* justify their choices and the amateurs like me would learn from them if they mentioned why they're picking the ones they have selected.

Just one thing: if we stick with 150, you may want to ask jhar to change the title of the original post for you.

 

[Art Rock]

1. Schubert 8
2. Mahler 4
3. Bruckner 9
4. Gorecki 3
5. Dvorak 9

Further down there will be more surprising choices.