Richard also has the gentle side. Pro-Wagner.

 

I think there is an assumption here about Wagner's caliber and influence as a historical-cultural phenomenon that just isn't supported. The poll is suspect; I am not voting.

 

Shouldn't you vote for Wagner, then? If the rest is suspect assumption all you have left is a lot of wonderful music so why not vote for it. Or it you don't like the music then vote anti-Wagner.

 

Wagner had such an enormous effect on musical history that it is practically impossible to predict how the evolution of Western art music would have gone without him. On the other hand, from a broader historical perspective, he was a manifestation of enormous trends (ethnic nationalism, unification of Germany, Nietzschean and social-Darwinist ideals of the superman, western dabbling in eastern philosophy, anti-Semitism) which supersede him. Outside of the Bayreuth-culture pilgrimage as a touchstone, I don't think the sweep of cultural history would have been all that different.

On the whole, I think Wagner has been a positive force in the world and doesn't need to be replaced. A prominent cultural figure able to refute the fusion of social-Darwinism and race-science sure would have prevented a great deal of the 20th Century's horrors. I'm not sure what pitting the two against one another accomplishes.

 

Wagner had such an enormous effect on musical history that it is practically impossible to predict how the evolution of Western art music would have gone without him.

I think the main trends would remain largely similar, as the seeds of the dissolution of traditional tonality were planted as early as Beethoven/Schubert in the Grosse Fuge or the SQ D.887, and in different ways at that. Of course Wagner did influence an entire generation massively but in that same generation there were some prominent composers whose innovations (or at least some of them) had little to do with him (Debussy or Rimsky) and were just as influential on future generations. It's safe to say that late 19th/early 20th century music would have sounded very different regarding specific examples, but maybe not so different regarding larger trends.

I don't think removing any one composer from the evolution of classical music would alter its course that drastically.

 

My goodness.

 

It seems to be a hard thing to wish someone out of existence. Even if that person was a historical figure with an unsavory reputation.

 

OP, what composer did you have in mind with the dates 1813 - 1883?

Jacques Offenbach lived 1819- 1880 and I would take his run of works over Wagner, its a lot more fun, and he is a cello guy.

The history books like to pit Meyerbeer (1791–1864) as the anti-Wagner, but Meyerbeer was a big influence on Wagner and liked his work, Wagner eventually trashed his work, as he always did when he felt threatened by another's success. But he is of Jewish heritage, as you say. His run from Robert le Diable thru L'Africaine was impeccable.

Both of these guys are pretty ripe for a big revival in my opinion, both are pretty obscure in the year 2025, and not rightly so.

 

To Johanna and Franziska (Richard’s nieces)
Cosima was ‘Auntie Wagner’

 

An ultimate metaphysical inquiry "is": does this "and" between Johanna AND Franziska stem from Heidegger ... or need John O consult Nietzsche's approach to conjunctions?

Perhaps the 2 nieces should become Isolde, free themselves from the prison of language's duality, transform into undifferentiated, nameless unity.

 

I'm in favor of anti-polls this morning.

 

Anti-semitism was widespread across Europe and in both non-Jewish and Jewish creative circles in the 19th century. Indeed, Jews were widely scapegoated for societal issues, & especially in Eastern Europe. So, I don't see the great need to focus solely on Wagner's Jewish ancestry, if that's true, or his repugnant 19th century views. I'd rather listen to Wagner's music.

However, I would very much have preferred to live in a world without Nazi butchers & the Third Reich.

Not voting.

 

I don`t care much about Wagner`s Operas anyway so I choose Anti-Wagner. At least the latter sounds like a better person.

 

If you don't mind my asking, how did you manage to paste that excerpt from a score into your post?

Download the score from IMSLP as a PDF file, "take a picture" of it using a program like Snip & Sketch or convert the PDF to JPG online, and then edit the JPG.

Windows Snipping Tool came pre-installed on Windows 11 and can do this as well. Just start the program and highlight whatever portion of a score you want, snip, download file as JPG.

 

Thank you too!

 

What are you on about now?