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Um I hate to get all informational but, Beethoven was black. You can read it in Lady Katy's new book "How I Married My BFF Named Music." These usa today articles are so barbaric and passe, it's impairing the energy in this chat.
 
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Discussion Starter · #42 · (Edited)
Google has been throwing this article in my face all day, so I clicked on it. . . I'm sorry I did.

https://slate.com/culture/2020/10/fullname-famous-composers-racism-sexism.html

Seriously, why are there so many of these recently? Who comes up with these stupid articles? People must have too much time on their hands because of covid. This stuff kills brain cells.

Just noticed the author called Beethoven "Ludwig Beethoven" at the end. For real...
 

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Seriously, why are there so many of these recently? Who comes up with these stupid articles? People must have too much time on their hands because of covid. This stuff kills brain cells.
Trash tabloidism is everywhere. Decide to be a nitwit and the phone will be ringing nonstop with interview requests. Then they'll find an anti-nitwit with opposite views, and before you know it there'll be a "debate" between the "two sides" on national TV. Why do we say all three names for Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart but only two for Florence Price. Definitely something's fishy here ... (stare, stare, stare)
 

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Google has been throwing this article in my face all day, so I clicked on it. . . I'm sorry I did.

https://slate.com/culture/2020/10/fullname-famous-composers-racism-sexism.html

Seriously, why are there so many of these recently? Who comes up with these stupid articles? People must have too much time on their hands because of covid. This stuff kills brain cells.

Just noticed the author called Beethoven "Ludwig Beethoven" at the end. For real...
I skimmed this article (and a few other trashy pieces I've encountered) and I wonder if it is part of the cancel culture and rewrite history effort. :cry:

Concluding sentence at the end of the article linked above:
"This collision between increasing diversity and the mononyms of music history [i.e., Bach, Beethove, Mozart] has created a hierarchical system that, whether or not you find it useful, can now only be seen as outdated and harmful."
 

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Google has been throwing this article in my face all day, so I clicked on it. . . I'm sorry I did.

https://slate.com/culture/2020/10/fullname-famous-composers-racism-sexism.html

Seriously, why are there so many of these recently? Who comes up with these stupid articles? People must have too much time on their hands because of covid. This stuff kills brain cells.

Just noticed the author called Beethoven "Ludwig Beethoven" at the end. For real...
Finally, a website addressing the real issues in society. I scrolled down and noticed the same website also had a (presumably exhilarating) article on "Why Does My Boyfriend Constantly Dirty Talk About Something He Finds "Gross"?". Clearly, they are on point on the major issues of the day and knocking down sacred cows one by one until utopia is upon us!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
San Francisco Opera put out a tweet for Angela Gheorghiu's birthday ( ), and in it they put her quote:

Pop music is for the body, but opera is for the soul.
which I found cute and now have as my forum signature.

I'm surprised at how serious people are taking this quote, a quote I simply took as a humorous way of an opera singer expressing their love for what they do. I wonder if people would be so upset if one substituted some other genre in place of opera, such as:

Pop music is for the body, but jazz is for the soul.
Pop music is for the body, but metal is for the soul.
Pop music is for the body, but rap is for the soul.
Pop music is for the body, but hip hop is for the soul.
Or, what if we said:

Opera is for the body, but pop music is for the soul.
Why should any of these trigger anyone?
 

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"This collision between increasing diversity and the mononyms of music history [i.e., Bach, Beethoven, Mozart] has created a hierarchical system that, whether or not you find it useful, can now only be seen as outdated and harmful."
The "mononyms" of music history = more straw men to attack. For equality they should go medieval as with Anonymous 4 -- composers take a number and form a line to the right.
 

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Yawn.

.......................................
I just scanned the first of the articles from ClassicFM.

Even though I had the unpleasant and unfortunate prognostication by various and sundry individuals (maybe they consider themselves 'journalists' but more like social engineers?) that classical music is 'racist' - I was wasn't ready for the tripe from ClassicFM. From the close of https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/composer-cancelled-fifth-symphony-elitist-vox-debate/

"The podcast ends with the line "Maybe it's time we break up with Beethoven once and for all…".
Breaking up with LVB, the Romantic so beloved for writing the unofficial anthem to the fall of the Berlin Wall and whose Ninth Symphony dreamed that 'all mankind will become brothers', seems a bit extreme.

But as such a giant of the music world, there's absolutely no reason we can't have a debate about his impact on it."


Time to stop listening to their station. I wonder what other music lovers think about this and would do about it.
 

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Google has been throwing this article in my face all day, so I clicked on it. . . I'm sorry I did.

https://slate.com/culture/2020/10/fullname-famous-composers-racism-sexism.html

Seriously, why are there so many of these recently? Who comes up with these stupid articles? People must have too much time on their hands because of covid. This stuff kills brain cells.

Just noticed the author called Beethoven "Ludwig Beethoven" at the end. For real...
This article seems to follow standard operating procedure:
- Notice a fact (some composers are referred to only by a single name, some aren't)
- Fail to spot something obvious (we do this all the time, everywhere, and it's nothing to do with racism or sexism)
- Bring racism into it
- Might as well bring sexism into it too, just to look like we're not just obsessed with race
- Hey presto! It's now problematic
- Come up with an asinine solution
 

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I just scanned the first of the articles from ClassicFM.

Even though I had the unpleasant and unfortunate prognostication by various and sundry individuals (maybe they consider themselves 'journalists' but more like social engineers?) that classical music is 'racist' - I was wasn't ready for the tripe from ClassicFM. From the close of https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/composer-cancelled-fifth-symphony-elitist-vox-debate/

"The podcast ends with the line "Maybe it's time we break up with Beethoven once and for all…".
Breaking up with LVB, the Romantic so beloved for writing the unofficial anthem to the fall of the Berlin Wall and whose Ninth Symphony dreamed that 'all mankind will become brothers', seems a bit extreme.

But as such a giant of the music world, there's absolutely no reason we can't have a debate about his impact on it."


Time to stop listening to their station. I wonder what other music lovers think about this and would do about it.
Don't be silly. It's an opinion piece and doesn't affect hundreds of years of music at all.

In fact, it's more of a self-promotion gimmick, trying to simply stir up a renewed interest in Classical Music. THAT is ONE article, and certainly NOT representative of CLASSICFM on the whole. Browse their site for OTHER "learned" articles, and you'll find that no one is "cancelling" Beethoven, or any of the other European classical composers.

In this case, it actually IS what it is. We know that Europe dominates in terms of Classical music, and that Europe is full of Europeans, who, on the whole, are caucasian.

No one is blasting Asian art music for being Anglo-exclusionary, or indigenous African music for being anti-Asian. No one is complaining that there aren't more ragas written by white guys.

As for "Maybe it's time we break up with Beethoven once and for all…", only some sort of extremist would seriously suggest blacklisting Beethoven. No one is suggesting we tear down the Parthenon or the Pyramids or Stonehenge for being a product of where they were created.

Much ado about nothing, IMO.
 

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.. trying to simply stir up a renewed interest in Classical Music. THAT is ONE article, and certainly NOT representative of CLASSICFM on the whole....

As for "Maybe it's time we break up with Beethoven once and for all…", only some sort of extremist would seriously suggest blacklisting Beethoven...
If this article is generating interest in classical music or Beethoven, I wonder with what impact. The focus of the article seems to be on asking whether Beethoven (and classical music) are relevant in today's 'culture' - or telling the reader what to think.

(repeated) "This collision between increasing diversity and the mononyms of music history [i.e., Bach, Beethoven, Mozart] has created a hierarchical system that, whether or not you find it useful, can now only be seen as outdated and harmful.":eek:
 
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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Don't be silly. It's an opinion piece and doesn't affect hundreds of years of music at all.

In fact, it's more of a self-promotion gimmick, trying to simply stir up a renewed interest in Classical Music. THAT is ONE article, and certainly NOT representative of CLASSICFM on the whole. Browse their site for OTHER "learned" articles, and you'll find that no one is "cancelling" Beethoven, or any of the other European classical composers.

In this case, it actually IS what it is. We know that Europe dominates in terms of Classical music, and that Europe is full of Europeans, who, on the whole, are caucasian.

No one is blasting Asian art music for being Anglo-exclusionary, or indigenous African music for being anti-Asian. No one is complaining that there aren't more ragas written by white guys.

As for "Maybe it's time we break up with Beethoven once and for all…", only some sort of extremist would seriously suggest blacklisting Beethoven. No one is suggesting we tear down the Parthenon or the Pyramids or Stonehenge for being a product of where they were created.

Much ado about nothing, IMO.
If this article is generating interest in classical music or Beethoven, I wonder with what impact. The focus of the article seems to be on asking whether Beethoven (and classical music) are relevant in today's 'culture' - or telling the reader what to think.

(repeated) "This collision between increasing diversity and the mononyms of music history [i.e., Bach, Beethoven, Mozart] has created a hierarchical system that, whether or not you find it useful, can now only be seen as outdated and harmful.":eek:
While this is just one article and one person's opinion, what worries me is that these kinds of articles seem to be becoming more common, which is why I started this thread. And while it doesn't mean that these articles can really represent a cross section of society, I doubt they will be of any help for keeping classical music alive and well among the younger audiences and posterity. Plus, they are just so stupid that it's irritating to know that some people actually write this stuff.
 

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While this is just one article and one person's opinion, what worries me is that these kinds of articles seem to be becoming more common, which is why I started this thread. And while it doesn't mean that these articles can really represent a cross section of society, I doubt they will be of any help for keeping classical music alive and well among the younger audiences and posterity. Plus, they are just so stupid that it's irritating to know that some people actually write this stuff.
Nah, it's just a call for diversity, not a flip to non-European music. No one is seriously suggesting replacing Beethoven with Francis Johnson, just a call to include him.
 

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Nah, it's just a call for diversity, not a flip to non-European music. No one is seriously suggesting replacing Beethoven with Francis Johnson, just a call to include him.
That might actually be tricky since so little outside of a few piano scores seem to exist. (But there are Chevalier de Saint-Georges and Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, with several large works for orchestra.)
 

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Nah, it's just a call for diversity, not a flip to non-European music. No one is seriously suggesting replacing Beethoven with Francis Johnson, just a call to include him.
If you actually believe that, then I have some great beach front property I'm selling in Nebraska. I promise, I'll give you a great price!

V
 

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While this is just one article and one person's opinion, what worries me is that these kinds of articles seem to be becoming more common, which is why I started this thread. And while it doesn't mean that these articles can really represent a cross section of society, I doubt they will be of any help for keeping classical music alive and well among the younger audiences and posterity. Plus, they are just so stupid that it's irritating to know that some people actually write this stuff.
This article seems to follow standard operating procedure:
- Notice a fact (some composers are referred to only by a single name, some aren't)
- Fail to spot something obvious (we do this all the time, everywhere, and it's nothing to do with racism or sexism)
- Bring racism into it
- Might as well bring sexism into it too, just to look like we're not just obsessed with race
- Hey presto! It's now problematic
- Come up with an asinine solution
Adriesba summed it up well. These articles seem to have increased in frequency over the past few months and regardless of how many voices there are - they are becoming louder (or so it seems - or maybe they get more coverage). It is no secret that there have been questions about 'is classical music dying' - but not IMO in conjunction with current philosophies.

Nereffid's comments also fit in with the bias in the article.
 
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"The podcast ends with the line "Maybe it's time we break up with Beethoven once and for all…".
Breaking up with LVB, the Romantic so beloved for writing the unofficial anthem to the fall of the Berlin Wall


I found that offensive. Beethoven was NOT a Romantic composer. He was classical. Just as Louis Armstrong laid down the mechanics, if you will, of the Be-bop movement in jazz, he was not a be-bopper. So, it is with Beethoven: he laid down the mechanics of what became Romanticism but he was NOT a Romantic composer. I'm surprised ClassicFM would make that mistake.
 

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Hi Victor - what was it you found offensive - ClassicFM's error or somethign I said? Beethoven was classical - and paved the way to the romantic period - and revisited the style of his predecessors in his last compositions. That being said, other sources have also (wrongly) designated him as a romantic.
 
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