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Tonal music in our days

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13K views 110 replies 25 participants last post by  Andreas  
#1 ·
What if I compose something very innovative and never done before by any of the greatest composers using the "dear old" tonal system?

Will people don't care about it only because it's not atonal or what?

Can you give me a quick overview of the current state of tonal system in classic music?

Can you also show me some examples of classic contemporary tonal music?

I'd like to learn.

Thanks!
 
#2 ·
Why would you compare yourself with the greatest composers? Include all the not so famous ones and it's suddenly not so easy to create something that has never been done before by just using the dear old tonal system.

I'm not stating it's impossible to compose something totally new with the tonal system but I'm reaaaally sceptical it wouldn't sound naive and/or uninteresting.

There's plenty of composers abusing the system but they still don't try to create fugue again as it was in 1700's. As a part of the composition it could suddenly bring your piece of music to new life, though. Or you may bend or stretch the system.

-dstring

Disclaimer: This is a naive reply.
 
#4 ·
Look at what Maxwell Davies has done - An Orkney Wedding at Sunrise tonal and it's got a bagpipe solo :eek:


Another is Matthew McConnell who has written a concerto for toy piano :confused:


Tonality is only one way of writing modern music. Sometimes people get a bit jokey, sometimes they can be quite serious e.g.

Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur which is tonal but not equal temperament and uses samples and electric fiddle:


 
#6 ·
Nothing is "tonal" anymore, and if you composed in that way, you couldn't be taken seriously, though much of the music composed today is "tonal" and gets plenty of attention.

The confusion comes from tonal being used in two separate senses:
Tonal: the harmonic system relying on a hierarchical relationship between the notes of the diatonic scale and the functional relationships between them, created in the 17th century and continuing on through the early 20th century.

Tonal: harmony that uses a diatonic or modal rather than chromatic basis and generally privileges triads and their derivatives over other chord types.

Music of the second type has been composed consistently, and it doesn't earn you any scorn to compose this way. Music of the first type is an archaic method. You could say something new, of course, but you would be putting on a fake accent.
 
#13 ·
My friend, I don't think that some people here in TC are really using "tonal" in a technical way. Or are interested in the real technical meaning of "tonality".

By "tonal" they mean the music of the 19th century, and the first decades of the 20th, with a pint of Mozart and Bach, that is the only music they like, or they understand, or both.

In this context, "tonal" is for them the "right" way to write music, the 'natural' way to write music, instead of just a system, a convention used in the West for a few centuries. The fact that, literally, millions of musical pieces in the history of Mankind are not related to "tonality" won't make any difference. "Tonal" is a kind of totem.

Personally, I'm absolutely fine with that. What it's more difficult for me to understand is why there is such a passion in TC for deriding any music that some people don't like, don't understand, or both.

After thinking about it, it seems to me that some people think that there is a kind of conspiracy in the classical music world. As, for some unknown cause, composers are no longer able to write good, "tonal" music anymore, they have decided to hide this fact, and present their obvious incompetence as the only way forward, the era of "atonal" music, and have recruited some snobs (that secretly detest the "atonal" music, but will never confess to it) to cooperate with them.

Then again, if you are actually promoting "atonal" music, this is because either you:

1.- Are part of the conspiracy
2.- You are not part of the conspiracy, but belong to the group of hopeless snobs.
3.- You are just a simpleton, unable to recognize "good", "tonal" music for what it is, and "atonal" music for... well, for just crap.

It's really puzzling, but this is how I see the situation in TC with all these endless debates about "tonality".
 
#8 ·
For something incredibly beautiful and accessible...


For something a bit more challenging and large-scale, people in the current listening thread (including me) have been exploring Penderecki, where the second half of his works are neo-romantic, that is, tonal and extroverted and lush in emotion but not in the common-practice harmonic style. That is, there is a heavy use of triads but not functional harmony (Mahlerian just explained this very well.)
 
#9 · (Edited)
I am all for change, music needs to evolve. So let some of the music of today be as innovative and novelty as it can be. But next to that, why shouldn't there be a part of music being composed today that is similar in style to the baroque, classical, romantic etc. eras? I don't see what's wrong with that. If I think it's good music, it's relevant. Who cares what others consider relevant?
 
#11 ·
Because... the point of music composition is to express your personal voice (I'm pretty sure Mahler, Stravinsky, and lots of other giants have said something similar) and it would be ineffective to do this with common practice functional harmony. It's not a matter of relevance, novelty, or evolution (which don't matter as much) as personal expression, especially personal expression of your attitude towards the current world and culture. I repeat, the point of abandoning common practice functional harmony isn't for innovation, but because writing that way wouldn't effectively communicate your personal voice.
 
#10 ·
Will people don't care about it only because it's not atonal or what?
I'd say it would depend on who you mean by "people"

If you mean music critics (who, I guess are, arguably "people")...probably not...

If you mean people on the site, I'd guess 50% wouldn't care, another 40% would be afraid to say they care, and maybe 10% might care.

If you mean people who program music concerts in traditional symphony music auditoriums.......it's doubtful.

If you mean the general public, who can say? Eric Whitacre seems to do pretty well.....

I'd say, do what inspires you and take your chances.
 
#19 · (Edited)
You want some very nice tonal 20th century music, try Persichetti's piano sonatas #'s 2-10, Ives' Concord Piano Sonata, Bartok's second violin concerto, Prokofiev's 2nd violin concerto and 3rd piano concerto, Schuman's symphonies #'s 3, 6, 8 and 10, and Mennin's symphony #7.

I don't know about "your days", but this modern tonal music sure belongs to "my days."

For something written recently (2002), try Seppo Pohjola's first symphony-accessible, tonal with dissonance.
 
#22 ·
Check out the following threads.

Check out the following threads:

http://www.talkclassical.com/33271-who-your-favorite-living.html. Many of the composers here most would consider tonal within the context of the OP.

http://www.talkclassical.com/32482-recommend-me-some-late.html. Like the above, many of the composers here most would consider tonal within the context of the OP.

http://www.talkclassical.com/33151-new-symphony-american-composer.html. New symphony by an up and coming American composer. In spite of the dissonances, it is basically a tonal work.

http://www.talkclassical.com/32689-what-top-5-21st.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/31834-composers-born-1960s-1970s.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/18533-post-ww2-composers-who.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/26178-great-new-modern-operatic.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/27797-greatest-living-composer.html

http://www.talkclassical.com/32980-what-most-recent-opera.html

There are many others.

One also can find some great suggestions in the "Latest Purchases" and "Current Listening" Threads.
 
#27 ·
Let's put it this way... would you recommend a modern author to write in the style of Charles Dickens? Definitely not. And although Charles Dickens is amazing and timeless (just like Beethoven) it would be pointless for a modern author to write in his style. Yes, there are no closed chapters in art, but personal expression comes first, and personal expression usually requires the methods and techniques of the present time (which are both tonal, atonal, microtonal, and more!).
 
#36 ·
Actually, I would. It doesn't help that I'm a Dickens fan, but I honestly think it's a shame that people don't write in that way any more. I feel the same way about music - I don't think that composing in a particular style diminishes the quality of a work, or inhibits a composer from expressing themselves.

I recently saw an organist perform one of his original compositions. In it there was a fugal section that sounded distinctively Baroque - if anything, I feel that it was the best part of his composition. He certainly seemed satisfied with it as well! I have no problem with innovation, but I don't think that new directions in music should automatically preclude the previous styles of music.
 
#28 · (Edited)
[EDIT: I see that SeptimalTriTone posted a somewhat similar line of thought above just as I was posting mine].

These "tonality" discussions are always a little bewildering for me. I don't want composers to write in the style of the 18th-century or 19th-century any more than I want to wear 18th-century clothes or live in a 19th-century house. I love the music of the 18th and 19th centuries just as I love the poetry and fiction of the 18th and 19th centuries. Yes, there are certain features of 18th and 19th century poetry and fiction that transcend the limits of their era. But they are also knee-deep in their milieu, not only in terms of setting, but style, language, worldview, etc. And so too is the music. In some ways, it transcends; in some ways, it's stuck in another time. I have lived a good chunk of my life in the 20th century and am now in the thick of the 21st. I want artists to speak to me in my native tongue -- to speak to me in contemporary musical parlance. My world is full of sounds that didn't exist in the 18th and 19th century, and I presume that artists hear those same sounds and those sounds are part of their palette.

For those who are uncomfortable with contemporary musics, my first question is: What specific examples are you thinking of that make you uncomfortable that you yearn for "tonality"? Are you aware of the wide ranging works and composing styles that may be less discomfitting? (Arpeggio posted an excellent set of links above to threads where a good and wide-ranging set of examples are cited and discussed). Other questions follow: Why do you yearn for music of another era? If artists actually composed faux-Haydn string quartets, would that satisfy you? If artists composed faux-Beethoven symphonies or faux-Wagner operas, would that satisfy you? What are you asking for from your artists?

In fact, contemporary artists, on occasion, deliberately compose in or draw upon earlier styles. Two examples. The first is a rather avant-garde-ish composer, Charles Wuorinen, who playfully took some Renaissance dance music pieces and cleverly re-orchestrated them for contemporary performance. Here's the YouTube:


One could call those "Etudes" in the sense that they are studies in instrumental coloring, that Wuorinen cleverly took advantage of the fact that Renaissance composers might have allowed a variety of instruments to play a certain line (giving him the opening to use 20th-century instruments like a clarinet) and that Renaissance performers might well have improvised using a variety of techniques to punctuate the melody (giving him the opening to use 20th-century techniques like glissandi and flutter-tonguing). What are we to do with such deliberate archaicisms? Is that what we want fulltime? And what about the artist's intentionality? Are not such works more examples of humor and playfulness?

Another more serious example: Dobrenka Tabakova is a young contemporary Romanian-born British composer who has composed a work called "Suite in the Old Style". She deliberately plays on certain late Renaissance / early Baroque styles in this piece, but she is also consciously writing a serious contemporary work. But then, this is just one work in her repertoire. I doubt she wants this to define her oeuvre. This is simply her loving nod to music of the past. But I suspect that she thinks of this as expressive only a tiny part of her soul. She has other things to say.


Let me use literary examples: If I write a novel in the style of Dostoyevsky -- and I mean, really in his style, using his mannerisms, his sentence structures, his character developments, his plot twists -- what would I be doing artistically? Mocking him? Being ironic? Of course, one can still write a good 20th-century novel and be epic. Witness Gabriel Garcia Marquez' One Hundred Years of Solitude. But Marquez told the story as he did, in a rather dizzying late 20th-century way, with its folkloric "magical realism." And he told the story of anguish and joy of a family in a century of violent Latin American politics. I am happy he wrote a 20th-century novel and not a faux-19th century one. He carved out a voice that fit his story and our world. Its "magical realism" might discomfit those who want a 19th-century novel of manners. And it may be hard the first time through to figure "what really happened". But Marquez was speaking powerfully enough, uniquely enough, that he was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature and became one of the towering figures of 20th-century literature. Should I have insisted that he write like Jane Austen or Cervantes?

I think of T.S. Eliot's classic essay "Tradition and the Individual Talent." How much of the "tradition" must our "individual talents" embrace for us to listen to them and be grateful for what they say? I don't think this is about "tonality". I think it's about how much we are willing to let our artists speak to us in beautiful -- and beautifully discomforting -- ways.
 
#30 · (Edited)
The layman's read of this would have the 'dear old' tonal system meaning the new work would sound like the 'dear old' works... it would not, if "tonal" is meant as "sound like the old stuff."

Too, Tonal is thought about very differently now, a shift of 'how to look at it' since Debussy, and over as many years from 1890 until now.

To many, 'atonal' triggers an idea of 'the sound of Schoenberg, Berg and Webern,' or that school of mid 20th century serialist composers.

Now, both 'tonal and atonal' are at work, very much at the composer's disposal to work in any of a number of ways, a newer work with that m.o. probably sounding not tonal or atonal to anyone currently, but 'just new.'
Thomas Ades, among many other composers, said he doesn't even think in terms in tonal or atonal.
Here, his recent In Seven Days, a concertante work for orchestra and piano...
(very nice fugue segments in this piece.)

John Adams' music is 'resolutely tonal,' but even his early Common tones in simple time starts and ends in a different key, with no thought of 'going back home,' that no longer a rule or really upsetting to today's audiences.

If one were to compose a good piece more directly in the older syntax of common practice harmony, and with stylistic traits of a particular era or composer, this could be well-received -- but the composer would invariably have in the title one of the standard phrases which tips the hat as to the nature of that piece, i.e. À la manière de composer X or 'in the olden style (plenty of those.)

But the two pieces I gave links to above are current tonal music... so your question had me needing to assume that you meant music much more directly "in the olden style(s)." For that, without any criticism at all, you can find boodles of it in film music, generic late romantic, etc. To me (unable to ignore a lifetime's training and listening) that all sounds like pastiche. If you meant a piece sounding -- extended -- more like that, the 'dear old tonal piece' might get as much and like a reception to a decent new play written in the Shakespearean style.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I'd give that no serious weight at all -- rather a chicken or egg kind of situation. Lay tunes -- fitting the same templates -- were spontaneously hatching all over the place in the same eras, music not being some 'exclusive' of the church. "The church," then as now, is anything but an innovator when it comes to the arts, but of the eras mentioned, church music more likely worked with things first invented and generated 'by the lay people.'
 
#38 · (Edited)
Taken to an extreme, when art of a particular culture is more inclined toward imitating past models, and its artists start pirating the cultural cache of the past vs. making anything fresher and more innovative -- and the audience happily consume that, or even demand it, those are always signs of that culture's ultimate demise... the culture, its people, become effete in the old sense of the word, i.e. thin, worn out; that is a kind of rot or decadence, the organism no longer vital or renewing itself.

People advocating just that, 'make / write more like they did in the past,' are a manifestation of such a state in the time-line of a culture. Ergo, those advocates as a manifestation at that particular juncture of a culture's decay are very much a part of the problem.
 
#40 ·
Stargazer, you'll have to read what we said a bit more carefully. Let me ask you this: what's the point of classical music, for you personally? If the answer is expression, then you have no choice but to investigate everything from Gregorian chant to Renaissance to common practice to 20th/21st century and find out which works speak the most to you. But if the answer is pleasantness, then, perhaps the 20th/21st century has no value then. See Peter's comments about escapism vs artistic speaking.

I have no doubt that the organist you saw wrote an enjoyable and well-constructed Baroque-style fugue, but now you must ask: is this fugue "good" from the pleasantness standpoint, or an expression standpoint?
 
#49 ·
One of the most respected composers of recent years wrote music founded on his own modern system of tonality. Messiaen.

His writings on the subject of his musical style are very detailed, to an almost academic standard. Like one of his predecessors, Bartok, his music is both tonal and forward-thinking.

I think the problem, if you choose to view it as such, is that people have been trying for years to write music in (for example) Bach or Mozart's respective systems of tonality, but none of them have rivalled the masters, simply because such music has been done before and done better.
 
#56 ·
One of the most respected composers of recent years wrote music founded on his own modern system of tonality. Messiaen.

His writings on the subject of his musical style are very detailed, to an almost academic standard. Like one of his predecessors, Bartok, his music is both tonal and forward-thinking.
No, Messiaen's music is not tonal. It's not atonal, either. It has no harmony in the old sense. Many of the chords he uses are based on their timbre, not the old tonal system of harmony. Also, there is no "harmonic function" or movement towards a goal in Messiaen, as there is in tonality.

He's modern, but not tonal.
 
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