[Strange Magic]

No you offer it as a rationalization for browbeating everyone as if they just made fun of your playlist.

You never tire, it seems, of questioning the motives of other posters. It does your argument (such as it is) no good at all.

The issue is and has been what EB means when he posts of "inexorable logic" in music.

 

[59540]

You never tire, it seems, of questioning the motives of other posters. It does your argument (such as it is) no good at all.

The issue is and has been what EB means when he posts of "inexorable logic" in music.

Some motivations are fairly obvious. You never tire of badgering over someone's comment. I think the subject is pretty well exhausted.

 

[Luchesi]

In a perhaps overlooked post, I asserted that comparing scores is not a valid of way of being able to determine which is better (assuming we're comparing the comparable). So, Luchesi (or anyone else) how would you argue that such comparison would help such a determination?

It's a big subject. A piano concerto by JC Bach vs one by Mozart, which one is better and specifically why?

Better for learning
Better for teaching.
Better for our time.
Better for the future.
Better ideas overall.
Better arrangement.
Better figurations.
Better harmony.

Too mysterious. Can't be done?

Perhaps we're fooling ourselves.

 

[Forster]

It's a big subject. A piano concerto by JC Bach vs one by Mozart, which one is better and specifically why?

Better for learning
Better for teaching.
Better for our time.
Better for the future.
Better ideas overall.
Better arrangement.
Better figurations.
Better harmony.

Too mysterious. Can't be done?

Perhaps we're fooling ourselves.

So, comparing scores won't work?

 

[Luchesi]

So, comparing scores won't work?

If we're fooling ourselves, then there's no way of determining. The same as in any other subject.

 

[Strange Magic]

If we're fooling ourselves, then there's no way of determining. The same as in any other subject.

What are you saying here? I am mystified. Please flesh out in clear language what you want others to take away from this post. Can one demonstrate whether the scores of works by Bach and Mozart are A) equal, B) One is "better " than the other, C) One cannot reach any conclusion, or D) something else?

 

[Eva Yojimbo]

I take your point. And yet, isn't there a grain of truth in the idea that some keys are more likely to provoke certain emotions? Film composers build their careers on such connections, and one of the basic appeals of pop music is that it does the same.

Unless you're a trained musician with really good ear for pitch you aren't going to hear keys in equal temperament tuning. Most of the emotional effect of tonal music doesn't come from what key it's in, but from the chord/harmonic progressions. Basically, a I-V-vi-IV chord progression is going to have a similar emotional effect regardless of what key it's in. The only way keys will have an effect on this is that it will slightly chance the "tone color" of the instruments playing the notes given that every instrument will sound slightly different (have slightly different harmonics) depending on exactly what notes it's playing. There is probably some differences in emotional effects from tonal coloring, but it's also probably a subtler one than chord progressions.

 

[Luchesi]

What are you saying here? I am mystified. Please flesh out in clear language what you want others to take away from this post. Can one demonstrate whether the scores of works by Bach and Mozart are A) equal, B) One is "better " than the other, C) One cannot reach any conclusion, or D) something else?

B B B
When I compare scores, the 'betters' I listed aren't subjective, because I'm looking at the scores. For me, in the arts, subjective means subject to likes and dislikes. For me, it's a waste of time collating them, and trying to derive something reliable and universally applicable.
Here's a thought. If we cling to the absolutes of Newton we won't appreciate how the universe balances its books. So therefore, "If we're fooling ourselves, then there's no way of determining. The same as in any other subject."

 

[Luchesi]

Unless you're a trained musician with really good ear for pitch you aren't going to hear keys in equal temperament tuning. Most of the emotional effect of tonal music doesn't come from what key it's in, but from the chord/harmonic progressions. Basically, a I-V-vi-IV chord progression is going to have a similar emotional effect regardless of what key it's in. The only way keys will have an effect on this is that it will slightly chance the "tone color" of the instruments playing the notes given that every instrument will sound slightly different (have slightly different harmonics) depending on exactly what notes it's playing. There is probably some differences in emotional effects from tonal coloring, but it's also probably a subtler one than chord progressions.

Yes, it might be how it looks on the page. Here again, how will I convince people that the look of a key is this affective?

 

[Strange Magic]

B B B
When I compare scores, the 'betters' I listed aren't subjective, because I'm looking at the scores. For me, in the arts, subjective means subject to likes and dislikes. For me, it's a waste of time collating them, and trying to derive something reliable and universally applicable.
Here's a thought. If we cling to the absolutes of Newton we won't appreciate how the universe balances its books. So therefore, "If we're fooling ourselves, then there's no way of determining. The same as in any other subject."

An answer that is not an answer. The elliptical reply is something you have mastered and I salute you for it. It's obviously a gift.

 

[Luchesi]

An answer that is not an answer. The elliptical reply is something you have mastered and I salute you for it. It's obviously a gift.

You look at the scores. JC Bach did what was predictable for the time. What Mozart did still impresses us today. For the specifics you need to know about what you're looking at, but are you conversant with the language in front of you?

A lot of none-answers are attempts to avoid what would surely sound like condescension. I respect CM enthusiasts and I'm just trying to be helpful.

I downloaded this and gave them a donation.

Ludmila Ulehla - Contemporary Harmony - Free Download PDF

Ludmila Ulehla - Contemporary Harmony

 

[Strange Magic]

You look at the scores. JC Bach did what was predictable for the time. What Mozart did still impresses us today. For the specifics you need to know about what you're looking at, but are you conversant with the language in front of you?

A lot of none-answers are attempts to avoid what would surely sound like condescension. I respect CM enthusiasts and I'm just trying to be helpful.

I downloaded this and gave them a donation.

Ludmila Ulehla - Contemporary Harmony - Free Download PDF

Ludmila Ulehla - Contemporary Harmony

Piercing through the mist that seems to enshroud your replies to direct questions, I come away with the idea that you favor Mozart over Bach. I do not expect a reply either affirming or denying this.

 

[mikeh375]

Unless you're a trained musician with really good ear for pitch you aren't going to hear keys in equal temperament tuning. Most of the emotional effect of tonal music doesn't come from what key it's in, but from the chord/harmonic progressions. Basically, a I-V-vi-IV chord progression is going to have a similar emotional effect regardless of what key it's in. The only way keys will have an effect on this is that it will slightly chance the "tone color" of the instruments playing the notes given that every instrument will sound slightly different (have slightly different harmonics) depending on exactly what notes it's playing. There is probably some differences in emotional effects from tonal coloring, but it's also probably a subtler one than chord progressions.

I agree with a lot of this (unless you have synesthesia). I would add more to the fact that timbral impact is a major contributor to emotional effect and one exploited as an emotional resource by knowing composers. Consideration of keys (or pitch centres, climactic notes, etc.), are vital if a composer is wanting to reach high levels of timbral intensity and/or drama to match the moment within the tonal/harmonic plan. This can include compositional and scoring pre-planning in order to 'exert' instruments at their extremities in the vital moments if so desired. To give one example, the effort and skill required of 4 players in a French horn section who have to produce a fff unison at the high end of the register, always adds to the drama, excitement and power of the music and the resultant sound can raise the roof. Moments like these have to be meticulously planned and supported in the scoring and often reveal a lot about a composer's orchestral ability.

 

[Forster]

Unless you're a trained musician with really good ear for pitch you aren't going to hear keys in equal temperament tuning. Most of the emotional effect of tonal music doesn't come from what key it's in, but from the chord/harmonic progressions. Basically, a I-V-vi-IV chord progression is going to have a similar emotional effect regardless of what key it's in. The only way keys will have an effect on this is that it will slightly chance the "tone color" of the instruments playing the notes given that every instrument will sound slightly different (have slightly different harmonics) depending on exactly what notes it's playing. There is probably some differences in emotional effects from tonal coloring, but it's also probably a subtler one than chord progressions.

OK, I see that; how important chord progression is, but for the untrained, chord progressions aren't easy to pick out either, whereas it's easier to hear an affective difference between a C Maj and a G Min symphony...isn't it?

 

[fbjim]

Yes, it might be how it looks on the page. Here again, how will I convince people that the look of a key is this affective?

By performing it

 

[SanAntone]

When I compare scores, the 'betters' I listed aren't subjective, because I'm looking at the scores.

There is nothing about "looking at a score" that makes your conclusions objective. The score is simply the raw data of the work, the pitches, the tempo markings, slurs, articulation and other performance indications the composer included. How you interpret this information is subjective.

Specifically:
If you look at a score by Mozart and perform some analysis of it, your decision of what Mozart did that was "better" is a subjective conclusion based on the musical qualities you prioritize and consider important. And your assessment that Mozart accomplished these qualities of the work better than another composer's work is also a subjective judgment made by you.

You decided that Mozart and e.g. J.C. Bach had exactly the same goal, intention, and priorities, when writing their respective works. And you decided that there was a basis of comparison of the two works. All subjective judgments made by you.

You haven't accomplished anything different from someone who says "I like the Mozart work more than the one by J.C. Bach."

 

[Luchesi]

^^^^You're saying I'm wrong. It can't be done. What do you get out of musical analysis?

 

[SanAntone]

What do you get out of musical analysis?

A better understanding of what a composer has done; how a work is put together. Its purpose is not to compare one work to another, but to understand from the inside of a work what the composer was about.

 

[Luchesi]

By performing it

For me, Eb is dark brown and Ab is grey/silver Dm is light brown/tan, Bb is black, F# is bright green, yet Gb is grey (that's helpful), F#m is a light green. Am is white. Unconscious associations. CM is brown but not tan.
I picked these up somewhere along the way, and others also bring a unique color to mind. Not the sound, it's just the mention of the key or the look of the first page.

 

[59540]

For me, Eb is dark brown and Ab is grey/silver Dm is light brown/tan, Bb is black, F# is bright green, yet Gb is grey (that's helpful), F#m is a light green. Am is white. Unconscious associations. CM is brown but not tan.
I picked these up somewhere along the way, and others also bring a unique color to mind. Not the sound, it's just the mention of the key or the look of the first page.

To me, Bach’s music is not black and white; it’s full of colours. In my imagination each tonality corresponds to a colour. The WTC with its 24 preludes and fugues in all the major and minor keys provides an ideal opportunity for this fanciful fantasy. Let’s imagine that in the beginning there was innocence and therefore C-major (all white keys) is snow-white. The last piece of both books is in b-minor which is the key to death. Compare the fugue of Book 1 to the Kyrie of the b-minor mass. This has to be pitch-black. Between these two poles we have all the other colours, first the yellows, oranges and ochre (between c-minor and d-minor), all the shades of blue (E-flat major to e-minor), the greens (F-major to g-minor), pinks and reds (A-flat major to a-minor), browns (B-flat), grey (B-major) and finally black.

Of course this is a very personal interpretation and each of you may have a different opinion. Nevertheless if some of us happen to believe that music is more than just a series of notes and sounds, then a little bit of fantasy is welcome.

Andras Schiff: on playing Bach and the Well-Tempered Clavier - Vancouver Recital Society

Senza pedale ma con tanti colori (Without the pedal but with plenty of colours) Playing J. S. Bach’s keyboard music on the modern piano, pianists are confronted with various fundamental questions. The answers to these are never simple. For example: … Continue reading →

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