[Pat Fairlea]

Fascinating thread. Anyone for Chaminade?

 

[Roger Knox]

Fascinating thread. Anyone for Chaminade?

Thanks for your observation -- there is a lot of fine music from this era and much to discuss. I like and value Chaminade's music very much, and would be interested in your thoughts on her works and recordings of them.

In post #82 I wrote on her 2 compositions for solo instrument and orchestra, but not on recordings or performances. Some are on YouTube:
- Concertino for Flute and Orchestra, op. 102 (1907)
- Concert-piece for Piano and Orchestra (1908)

And this work would be good to know about, haven't listened to it yet:
- Callirhoë, Op. 37, ballet symphonique (1888)

She was considered a very good orchestrator, and there are quite a few unpublished orchestrations of her piano works. I'm not a Spotify user but her major work Les Amazones for soloists, chorus and orchestra is available there.

 

[Roger Knox]

Here we will include romantic and impressionist, but not modernist, compositions by Albert Roussel (1869-1937). (In brief, for this thread modernism begins around 1910, the era of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring; Schoenberg's String Quartet No. 2 and Piano Pieces, op. 11; and Bartok's Allegro barbaro.)

Doing this thread I first became aware of the early orchestral compositions of Roussel. Late romantic with impressionist leanings, these works floored me since previously I was only aware of his neo-classical music such as the Third Symphony and Piano Concerto. A late starter following his naval career, Roussel was a serious-minded composer who progressed quickly at the Schola Cantorum under Vincent D'Indy. His symphonic prelude Resurrection (1904) is already a mature work based on Tolstoy's novel. The First Symphony: Le Poème de la forêt (1904-6) shows the impressionist influences of Debussy and Ravel, but also Roussel's abilities with thematic interest and continuity in a large form. The extended three-movement orchestral suite with chorus Evocations (1912) brought him to widespread public notice, with its shimmering orchestration and the fascinating atmosphere of India that he absorbed over seven years as a naval officer in the East.

We shouldn't imply that there are two Roussels - the pre-war romantic impressionist and the post-war neo-classicist. The Second Symphony (1919-21) I find to be a convincing work that shows aspects of both phases. But during the 1920's and '30's he became his own kind of neo-classicist while retaining earlier traits, and gained world renown in a changed era. There is a list of recommended recordings by josquin13 on post #12 of this thread.

 

[Roger Knox]

Check out the discussion about different recordings of Vincent D'Indy's Symphony on a French Mountain Air, as this weekend's Saturday Symphony in the thread Orchestral Music/SS 03.04.21 - d'Indy - Symphonie sur un chant montagnard. Lots of choice there -- PrestoMusic lists 30 options!

 

[Roger Knox]

The early overtures of Paul Dukas (1865-1935) show his progress from two works written before he was twenty, to maturity as a composer. The formerly missing King Lear (1883) was re-discovered in the 1990's. It is a tragic romantic work, with imposing brass chorale writing but derivative in style. Götz von Berlichingen from the following year is much better. It is fast and exciting with effective string passages. A long build-up to the close features an impressive wind-brass chorus over rushing strings, somewhat reminiscent of Wagner's Tannhäuser Overture to be sure. Polyeucte (1891), for Corneille's tragedy, is powerfully orchestrated with evocative solos for English horn and clarinet. Here the application and variation of motifs is sophisticated and the modulating harmony adventurous.

With repeated hearings I have come to appreciate the Symphony in C Major (1897) of Dukas more and more. The Wagnerisms are mostly gone, and there is a sense of Saint-Saëns' energetic classicism being combined with Franck's distinctive romanticism into something new. The first movement is convincing and well-structured, and the second magnificently expressive in a way that seems original. The finale returns to the opening movement's energy but with a simpler and less formal manner. Unfortunately, listening to rousing finales at home lacks the live acoustics and uplifted audience that makes them so effective in concert, which is where I hope to experience this work at some point.

Whatever Dukas learned from composing this First Symphony must have benefitted his symphonic poem of the following year; The Sorcerer's Apprentice is just about as perfect formally and as deservedly popular as any work of this type I can think of. This thread does not cover ballet scores but with La Péri (1911-12), Dukas moved into a near-impressionist phase with a deserving work that has also taken its place in the concert hall and on recordings.

 

[Roger Knox]

Florent Schmitt (1870-1958) has received increased attention in recent years, in part through the discovery and recording of some previously-unknown earliest works. In general his earlier music can be described as late romantic/impressionist; in the 1920's Schmitt moved in a modernist direction. He was an excellent orchestrator, an outstanding pianist, and he wrote beautifully for the voice, composing successfully in all prominent genres except opera. Nevertheless his reputation has been damaged by his troubling political views in the 1930's and collaboration with the pro-German Vichy government during World War II. I am focusing here on his orchestral music up to 1920, which shows his consistent stylistic development.

The early orchestral works of Schmitt include Soirs (1890-96); Le palais hanté (1904); and Rêves (1915). Soirs was originally a collection of 10 piano pieces, of which Schmitt orchestrated eight, changing the order (some performances also include fewer than the whole set.) These attractive pieces show the influence of his teacher Fauré. The composer's advancing harmonic language and adventurous spirit, as well as his tendency toward the dark side appear in Le palais hanté, described as a symphonic etude based on Edgar Allan Poe's poem The Haunted Palace. Another important work for orchestra is Rêves (Dreams), some of which are nightmares! But because Schmitt is always in control of his material, with melodic, harmonic, and orchestrational aspects of high interest, this listener at least finds these works more fascinating than frightening.

Schmitt also composed a number of concertante works, two of which follow shortly after Rêves: J'entends dans le lointain for piano and orchestra (1917); and Légende for alto saxophone and orchestra (1918). The first-named originated as No. 1 in Schmitt's three-piece suite for piano solo Ombres, once again showing how this composer like Ravel was able to create orchestral works of equal or higher stature out of his piano pieces. Finally, the renowned Légende also exists in successful versions for cello and for violin. (to be continued)

 

[Roger Knox]

Continuing from the previous post, here are two corrections: Florent Schmitt's Légende for alto saxophone and piano was also issued in an orchestrated version; there were versions for violin or viola solo too. I have heard it played on cello but that may have come later. An excellent premiere recording of the violin/orchestra version, played by Nikky Chooi, is one of the featured works on an award-winning 2020 Naxos release by the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by JoAnn Falletta. This all-Schmitt CD includes the symphonic poem from the ballet The Tragedy of Salomé (1910), the premiere voice-and-orchestra recording of Musique sur l'eau (1898) sung by Susan Platts, and the suite from the ballet Oriane et le Prince d'Amour (1934). The Tragedy of Salomé is considered by some to be Schmidt's masterpiece. I recommend it highly for anyone who likes the orchestral works in the previous thread. It builds on the high drama of the story to create an orchestral tour-de-force. Drama brings out Schmitt's strengths. Another high-quality example can be heard on a previous Buffalo Philharmonic/Falleta Naxos release: his suites Antoine et Cléopatre Nos. 1 & 2 (1920), from his incidental music to the play. In addition the CD includes Schmitt's Le palais hanté.

Florent Schmitt lived a long and productive life. His later modernist works are important and show the stamp of his distinctive musical personality. For more on the Schmitt revival see www.florentschmitt.com.

 

[Prodromides]

Begging the pardon of Roger Knox, I wish to interject into these fine texts a few uncompromisingly selfish perspectives here.

During the late 1980s & early 1990s, smaller independent record labels + their album producers + the medium of the compact disc itself spearheaded recordings of 'unheralded' compositons (French or otherwise). Koechlin & Schmitt were for me two gateways into the adventurous realm of 20th century musical expressions thanks to Cybelia, Marco Polo, Ades, etc.

For the few human beings on the planet who might be interested in such, these following CDs are what I consider to be essential Florent Schmitt listening:

Cybelia CY 842

Auvidis-Valois V 4687

Marco Polo 8.223448

Ades 203592

During this timeframe, many musical works (which were never-before on vinyl records) received their decades-overdue world premiere recordings ... and this is how I got 'into' classical music via the back-door - by listening to Schmitt's Salome before ever seeing Salome by Richard Strauss. By listening to Schmitt's Symphonie Concertante alongside Stravinsky & Bartok ... and bypassing Mozart & Beethoven. Blind-buying all those Cybelia CDs leaves me the with 2 cents I impart to thee @ TC.

 

[Roger Knox]

A Brief Pause

This thread comes with one guarantee - that for each composer I listen to all the orchestral music that I can get access to. That can take quite a while. As we get into the twentieth century, the reason I stop at modernist works is not that I don't like modernism. It is rather to keep the focus on late romantic, postromantic, and impressionist music. Also I'm afraid of the incredible divisiveness that I've seen occur when romanticism and modernism jostle with each other. But that is a topic to discuss elsewhere.

So far that has meant (with Roussel and Schmitt) that we have stopped in the early 1920's. But Reynaldo Hahn (1874-1947), for example, continued to compose in a late romantic style into the 1930's. For example his Piano Concerto dates from 1931. I believe that drawing attention to romanticism and its variants through the first half of the twentieth century can make a big difference - look at the upsurge of interest in Korngold's music over the last quarter century, for example.

Coming up we will see some prolific composers including Pierné, Ropartz, Magnard, Koechlin, and Tournemire, and some with small outputs. One conclusion that I've already reached is that the complete works of Koechlin take the prize for Most Confusing Oeuvre! Stay tuned.

 

[Roger Knox]

Begging the pardon of Roger Knox, I wish to interject into these fine texts a few uncompromisingly selfish perspectives here.

During the late 1980s & early 1990s, smaller independent record labels + their album producers + the medium of the compact disc itself spearheaded recordings of 'unheralded' compositons (French or otherwise). Koechlin & Schmitt were for me two gateways into the adventurous realm of 20th century musical expressions thanks to Cybelia, Marco Polo, Ades, etc.

During this timeframe, many musical works (which were never-before on vinyl records) received their decades-overdue world premiere recordings ... and this is how I got 'into' classical music via the back-door - by listening to Schmitt's Salome before ever seeing Salome by Richard Strauss. By listening to Schmitt's Symphonie Concertante alongside Stravinsky & Bartok ... and bypassing Mozart & Beethoven. Blind-buying all those Cybelia CDs leaves me the with 2 cents I impart to thee @ TC.

Great! These major recordings conducted by Segerstam, Robertson, Davin, and Mercier bring a crucial European perspective, plus the story of how you became interested in classical music is terrific. More later.

(more): It is notable that Schmitt's compositions had such a powerful effect on you, and it shows the value of these recordings of overlooked compositions. Incidentally the recent Naxos recording of The Tragedy of Salome that I discussed won the Diapason D'Or prize in March and was the #2 selling CD on Naxos in the months after it was released (source: Philip Nones on florentschmitt.com.) Many people are interested in this music.

Something similar happened to me several years ago with Franz Schmidt's Symphony No. 2 on the Sony recording by the Vienna Philharmonic recording/Semyon Bychkov. Not that I was new to classical music, but the whole area of neglected orchestral works c. 1850-1950 was new. Hearing the Schmidt is why I joined TalkClassical and continued to explore this area of German and Austrian music before taking on French music.

As for this thread, your posts are always welcome as are those from anyone on TC -- information, comments, criticisms, stories. I am not trying to create some exclusive territory, and have repeatedly asked people to post.

 

[Prodromides]

Not to throw a spanner into the works, but there is yet more French romanticism until the late 1950s in regards to music written for French-language cinema. To cite only a baker's dozen:

Georges Auric, Joseph Kosma, Paul Misraki, René Cloërec, Georges Van Parys, Darius Milhaud, Vincent Scotto, Maurice Thiriet, Arthur Honegger, Jean-Jacques Grunenwald, Jacques Ibert, Henri Sauguet & Maurice Jaubert.

 

[Roger Knox]

Not to throw a spanner into the works, but there is yet more French romanticism until the late 1950s in regards to music written for French-language cinema.

French romanticism in music for the cinema is something i know very little about. Needless to say there are a lot of fine composers in the list. It would be a good topic for another thread and I suspect that quite a few people would have interesting things to say.

 

[Roger Knox]

Looking for a segue from Florent Schmitt to Gabriel Pierné (1863-1937), I discovered that they both came from the Lorraine region, part of which -- together with Alsace -- became German-controlled after the Franco-Prussian War (1870-71). Schmitt's background was both French and German and his family stayed, whereas Pierné's was French and the family left the region for Paris after the war. The young boy was a prodigy who entered the Paris Conservatoire as an eight-year-old, studying with Massenet and Franck. Eventually he excelled in four areas: composition, piano, organ, and conducting. He built a career as a top conductor who led premieres of important works, e.g. Stravinsky's Firebird. As an orchestral composer, sometimes he wrote in a lighter vein (as did his teacher Massenet). Of his four concertante works for piano the Fantasy-Ballet (1885) and Scherzo-Caprice (1890) can be so described. I enjoy their fleet-fingered French pianism and also that of the Piano Concerto (1887), where light passagework is joined by thundering octaves and thick chords as in Saint-Saëns' Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor. Pierné holds our interest whether through melody, virtuosity, charm, contrast, or other qualities, while over the longer term his changes in style coupled with resemblances to other composers also remain characteristic. The Poème-Symphonique (1901) is different, though, with its tragic manner and restless modulations, followed by pianistic and orchestral brilliance in the triumphal closing fugato. On record Jean-Efflam Bavouzet with BBC Philharmonic Orchestra/Juanjo Mena on Chandos capture the full flavour of these four works with brio and insight. (to be continued)

 

[Roger Knox]

Gabriel Pierné wrote some other effective concertante works: the Konzertstück (1901) and Morceau de concert (1903) for harp and orchestra; and the Fantaisie basque for violin and orchestra (1927). The last-named is among recording links for Pierné in Josquin13's post #12 on this thread.

There are also links for some of his orchestral works, many of which are suites from ballets or incidental music. (The link there for the symphonic poem for orchestra and chorus L'an mil [The Year 1000: 1897] is no longer active, but the recording is still on YT.) L'an mil, Les Cathédrales (Prelude: 1915), and Paysages franciscains (1920) are major works and I particularly like the latter two. (see https://classicalmjourney.blogspot.com/2017/05/gabriel-pierne-lan-mil-les-cathedrales.html.)

Unfortunately I don't have time to write on all of Pierné's orchestral music, but wish to emphasize that he excelled in both light and more serious music, which in L'an mil shows affinities with his organ teacher Franck. In the later Paysages franciscains the influence of his collaborator Debussy was starting to show, in the move towards impressionism of his later years. There is more on Pierné in his TC Composer guestbook at: Gabriel Pierné

 

[Roger Knox]

Now we've arrived at the time of Joseph-Guy Ropartz (1864-1955) and Albéric Magnard (1865-1914), two composers who have been both unheralded and restored. I was surprised to see that Ropartz's symphonies each have only one recording listed, while Magnard's, presumably more popular, each have five. My assumption was that the numbers would be higher, because both composers offer excellent symphonies and that there have been major attempts to raise awareness through performances, recordings, and associated literature. Also Ropartz has received considerable status as the first of a strong group of Breton composers. Nevertheless, only so much can be done and currently catalogues of classical music are thinning.

 

[Roger Knox]

I've had a wonderful time listening to Joseph-Guy Ropartz's early tone poems. La Cloche des morts (1887) opens with the ostinato E-F#-C (the foreboding bells) over which there are string and woodwind entries. The piece continues with changed tonal centres, ending in the major key. La Chasse du Prince Arthur (1912) reminds us of the Celtic Arthurian Cycle that entered France through Brittany where it became enduring folklore. Characteristically for Ropartz, there is a sustained high violin pitch and the gradual coalescing of a melody in the bass, creating a sombre, impressionist atmosphere with trills and rich ambiguous harmonies. A brass clamour builds leading into the major key rollicking chase scene with ominous interludes. Melodies supported by parallel chords thicken the texture. The full orchestra has a moving chorale providing an extended and satisfying ending.

Soir sur les chaumes (1913; "chaumes = "stubble-fields") is the longest and most enigmatic of the group at 14-½ minutes. This time a two-note high-register ostinato alternating between octaves provides the "ceiling" (night sky?) while sustained tones below create a mysterious mood. Loud oncoming and receding waves of sound are followed by a mournful, passionate melody in the oboe and strings. A folk-like tune enters over the menacing bass ostinato in 5/8 time. A yearning quality prevails but the uneasy beat remains, up to the romantic climax that eventually subsides back into the opening mystery.

The above all appear on a Timpani disc from 2013 by the Luxembourg Philharmonic Orchestra/Emmanuel Krivine. The three-movement Sons des cloches (1913) is on another Timpani disc by the Orchestre de Bretagne/Pascal Verrot. L'Angelus, Le Glas, and Cloches du soir each are movements structured by simple ostinatos in church-bell-like patterns.

 

[Prodromides]

I was surprised to see that Ropartz's symphonies each have only one recording listed,

Listed where?

The 3rd symphony of Ropartz has had more than one incarnation.

EMI's 1985 LP on Michel Plasson's direction of the orchestre du capitole de Toulouse ...

... re-issued onto CD in 1993

the 2012 Timpani CD

Curiously, ArkivMusic's site lists Ropartz twice:

https://www.arkivmusic.com/Catalog/Category?CategoryId=16937&term=Ropartz

One entry is "Joseph Guy Ropartz" (without hyphen) whilst the other is simply "Guy Ropartz".

 

[Roger Knox]

Listed where?

Curiously, ArkivMusic's site lists Ropartz twice:

https://www.arkivmusic.com/Catalog/Category?CategoryId=16937&term=Ropartz

One entry is "Joseph Guy Ropartz" (without hyphen) whilst the other is simply "Guy Ropartz".

Thanks, Prodromides for providing this information. It is really helpful. I was using Prestomusic.com. For Symphony No. 3, they list the Ossonce recording you have shown above. For Symphonies 1 & 4, and 2 & 5, they list the Orchèstre Symphonique et Lyrique de Nancy, Sebastian Lang-Lessing, also on Timpani.

Next time I'll check ArkivMusic as well.

As for the name, I've seen both Joseph-Guy Ropartz (as in your image for Symphony No. 3 above) and Joseph Guy Ropartz. Is it possible that Joseph-Guy is the French usage and Joseph Guy the English?

 

[Prodromides]

As for the name, I've seen both Joseph-Guy Ropartz (as in your image for Symphony No. 3 above) and Joseph Guy Ropartz. Is it possible that Joseph-Guy is the French usage and Joseph Guy the English?

Perhaps English-speakers consider Guy as a 2nd (middle) name ... it appears as though his first name is Joseph-Guy.

Earlier recordings seem to omit Joseph altogether and simply posit Guy as his first name:

https://www.amazon.com/Guy-Ropartz-Sonatas-cello-piano/dp/B00ZYTAPH0

Can you believe some Amazon sellers ask over $900 for this Cybelia CD?

 

[Roger Knox]

Perhaps English-speakers consider Guy as a 2nd (middle) name ... it appears as though his first name is Joseph-Guy.

Earlier recordings seem to omit Joseph altogether and simply posit Guy as his first name:

Can you believe some Amazon sellers ask over $900 for this Cybelia CD?

Thanks, Prodromides, for your information on the Ropartz name.
At ArkivMusic I couldn't find any Ropartz symphony listed.
An Amazon seller is asking $902.81 for Ropartz Symphony No. 3. Omigod - I guess this Ropartz guy must be good!