[OperaChic]

Purists will hate this, but Sir Reginald Goodall made quite a career of conducting the operas in English. His Ring is excellent musically and nothing to be ashamed of. There are two catches: sometimes the singers' diction isn't as good as you would hope and it's hard to understand. The other is that you can understand it and sometimes English translations of German seem silly, trite and odd.
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Then there's the only way to really, truly absorb the music - not pay any attention to the words in a printed libretto or in subtitles. When you get to know an opera well enough, you no longer need those crutches. Reading, and that means eyes are active, uses a lot of brain power, and the timesharing with the ears means you can't really just listen. Granted, knowing something like the Ring so well is no small task, but give it time.

I doubt many purists hate it because it is sung in English -- its actually an excellent way to get to know the Ring more intimately. Most of the divided opinion on this set seems to revolve around the snaillike tempos. Not that I'm one to be so rigid on matters of tempo, but this interpretation is leisurely to put it mildly.

I've lived with and experienced all of Wagner's operas for years, and still read along with the libretto as I listen. I don't view it as a crutch at all. It only enhnaces my enjoyment; the words and music compliment each other at every level.

 

[DavidA]

You completely misread my comment. I was not claiming the Mime/Wanderer scene was full of action, but was referring to the action (the dramatic occurences seen and heard) during the previous two operas. But I'm pretty sure you just wanted an excuse to jump in with one of your notorious anti-Wagner diatribes. Mission accomplished.

I'm sorry to misread your comment but you did use the word 'action' which is not present in Mime / Siegfried. I am giving my opinion which I thought one was allowed to do here without being called 'notorious'. Just looking at the OP who is asking about where to start, I think the Mime / Wanderer is not a good place to start. You might think it wonderful but surely even you could see it's not a good starting point.

 

[DavidA]

Personal preferences I suppose... I love the Wanderer/Mime 'wisdom contest'!!

Most opinions given here are personal preference. I thought that was taken for granted.

 

[Jacck]

Richard Wagner ✠ PARSIFAL ✠

 

[TwoFlutesOneTrumpet]

Might be a stupid question but how can non-german speakers best enjoy wagner ?

Do you have some kind of double subtitles, one in german and one in english ?
I mean, the libretto ought to be important, as Wagner himself wrote it.

Learn German! And Germanic mythology.

 

[Woodduck]

Richard Wagner ✠ PARSIFAL ✠

Syberberg's film is interesting to watch but is an eccentric takeoff on Parsifal. It is NOT the place to start with this opera. Save it for when you know the work well.

 

[Mandryka]

Syberberg's film is interesting to watch but is an eccentric takeoff on Parsifal. It is NOT the place to start with this opera. Save it for when you know the work well.

Why do you think he has a sex change half way through?

 

[Woodduck]

Why do you think he has a sex change half way through?

:lol::lol::lol:

I can speculate that it's because Wagner wore silk underwear.

As Kundry says to Gurnemanz, "Fragt nicht weiter! Ich bin müde." (Ask no further. I am weary)

 

[starthrower]

If you want to dive into Parsifal - an adventure that'll be right for some and wrong for others - DO NOT begin by watching this or any other video. Two reasons:

1.) Most stage directors today are obsessed with presenting their own commentaries on Wagner rather than presenting his stories as he instructed, and the results are always in some way contrary to the spirit and meaning of the work.

2.) Wagner's music is so evocative that the images it will summon for an imaginative listener surpass any possible staging.

After you've experienced the music sufficiently, you can look at various productions and judge for yourself how well they represent the opera.

As for recordings, the ones which I find best capture the mystery and profundity of the work are the live Bayreuth performances under Knappertsbusch, recorded between 1951 and 1964. Just march right out and buy the only one recorded in stereo, the 1962 performance on Philips, for the full Parsifal experience. https://www.amazon.com/Parsifal-Ric...rsifal+knappertsbusch&qid=1558973047&s=music&sprefix=parsifal+kn,aps,218&sr=1-1 If you're allergic to live recordings (you'll have to tolerate a few audience noises as they settle in during the Knappertsbusch), the best version is probably the Kubelik, with honorable mention going to Barenboim and Karajan. I can't recommend the Boulez or the inexpensive Kegel; both have casting weaknesses and both indulge in some overly fast tempos. If you're in a hurry, Parsifal is not for you.

I'll get the stereo Knapp, as everyone seems to recommend it. Since the Kegel is the only one I have, I've nothing to compare it to, so for now it sounds fine.

 

[Guest]

I hope that the OP is able to make sense of all the advice that has been offered so far in this thread on how best to proceed with becoming familiar with Wagner's music. I trust he/she will take note of the general view that highlight CDs are the best way to proceed.

In my case, when researching a new composer, I usually go to a classical music web site like Arkiv or Presto where they list all of the works of each composer in a rough order of popularity. I next decide which works to acquire based on the kind of music I am looking for, whether solo instrument, chamber, orchestral, choral etc. Finally, I select a recording based on recommendations given by the likes of Gramophone, Penguin, and the BBC. Over quite a few years, I have found this process to be both reliable and very simple.

I suspect that the OP, who is evidently no novice having been into classical music for 12 years, knows this kind of procedure already but just fancied creating a thread on the topic of Wagner. That, of course, is fine because it gives other members who have less experience and knowledge on the composer in question the opportunity to pick up a few tips. Further, it is always nice to hear other people’s opinions on good recordings etc, as there is monopoly of good advice on things like this. The problem is that such discussions can, after a while, sometimes become rather argumentative and sterile, with very little further useful information to be gained.

 

[WildThing]

I hope that the OP is able to make sense of all the advice that has been offered so far in this thread on how best to proceed with becoming familiar with Wagner's music. I trust he/she will take note of the general view that highlight CDs are the best way to proceed.

I'm not sure if there is a general consensus, on this thread or otherwise. Highlight CDs aren't necessarily the best way to start with Wagner any more than they are with other composers, especially if the person enjoys opera. It all comes down to the individual: what they are looking to get out of the experience and the kind of music and art forms they are predisposed to. Personally, the prospect of bleeding chunks held very little appeal for me. I started with The Flying Dutchman and worked my way through the operas chronologically. I was hooked and never looked back.

 

[Woodduck]

I'm not sure if there is a general consensus, on this thread or otherwise. Highlight CDs aren't necessarily the best way to start with Wagner any more than they are with other composers, especially if the person enjoys opera. It all comes down to the individual: what they are looking to get out of the experience and the kind of music and art forms they are predisposed to. Personally, the prospect of bleeding chunks held very little appeal for me. I started with The Flying Dutchman and worked my way through the operas chronologically. I was hooked and never looked back.

I agree completely. Don't fiddle-faddle with this leviathan! Although the first Wagner I heard in my teen years was a variety of overtures, interludes, etc., and though I was enchanted and continued to enjoy them, I was fascinated by the mythological content of his stories and dove into the complete operas very quickly. Nothing in my life since has been more spellbinding than that early immersion in Wagner's vast, magical worlds, and the longer I know them the more they reveal to me. Get an early start.

 

[Guest]

I'm not sure if there is a general consensus, on this thread or otherwise. Highlight CDs aren't necessarily the best way to start with Wagner any more than they are with other composers, especially if the person enjoys opera. It all comes down to the individual: what they are looking to get out of the experience and the kind of music and art forms they are predisposed to. Personally, the prospect of bleeding chunks held very little appeal for me. I started with The Flying Dutchman and worked my way through the operas chronologically. I was hooked and never looked back.

I rather thought that there was more of a consensus than you appear to concede. Consensus or not, I still believe that recommending the full operas to an opera newbie is risky, and could involve a lot of disappointment.

If one is already an opera addict but not familiar with the work of one particular opera composer, then I guess what you say might be a better procedure. However, I assume that the OP is not an opera addict, otherwise he would very likely have become familiar with Wagner well before now.

Given that he/she has been interested in classical music for 12 years, and is seeking advice advice on how to start with WagnerIn fact, it's rather more likely that he/she is somewhat nervous about delving too deeply into this area without some initial testing of the waters.

A common criticism of Wagner's operas is that many are too long. This has been the case almost from the time they were first written. For me personally, I found all of the full operas to be too long for comfort. In fact, I would say that there are large chunks that are downright boring. The "highlight" CDs that I referred to earlier amount to nearly 11 hours of music, so they do involve quite a substantial amount of the various operas.

 

[DavidA]

With CDs so cheap I'd recommend a Ring highlights. One example for less than a quid second hand:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Rin...1_9?keywords=wagner+gotterdammerung+solti&qid=1558984008&s=gateway&sr=8-9-spell

There are stacks of other highlights but this is one of the best. Gives you a feel for what RW is all about. Don't for goodness sake go for complete operas as it is like a non-swimmer jumping in at the deep end.

 

[Guest]

With CDs so cheap I'd recommend a Ring highlights. One example for less than a quid second hand:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wagner-Rin...1_9?keywords=wagner+gotterdammerung+solti&qid=1558984008&s=gateway&sr=8-9-spell

There are stacks of other highlights but this is one of the best. Gives you a feel for what RW is all about. Don't for goodness sake go for complete operas as it is like a non-swimmer jumping in at the deep end.

That's exactly what I and several others have said, so I agree entirely.

 

[WildThing]

I rather thought that there was more of a consensus than you appear to concede. Consensus or not, I still believe that recommending the full operas to an opera newbie is risky, and could involve a lot of disappointment.

If one is already an opera addict but not familiar with the work of one particular opera composer, then I guess what you say might be a better procedure. However, I assume that the OP is not an opera addict, otherwise he would very likely have become familiar with Wagner well before now.

Given that he/she has been interested in classical music for 12 years, and is seeking advice advice on how to start with WagnerIn fact, it's rather more likely that he/she is somewhat nervous about delving too deeply into this area without some initial testing of the waters.

A common criticism of Wagner's operas is that many are too long. This has been the case almost from the time they were first written. For me personally, I found all of the full operas to be too long for comfort. In fact, I would say that there are large chunks that are downright boring. The "highlight" CDs that I referred to earlier amount to nearly 11 hours of music, so they do involve quite a substantial amount of the various operas.

If someone is new to opera and wants to find out if they could enjoy Wagner or any other opera, there's only one way to find out: experience it yourself! I'm with OperaChic and Woodduck; all this hand holding and wading in slowly for fear of scaring someone off is a little silly. Wagner was an opera composer, no need to try to hide that fact. If one tries out an opera and is bored by the experience, the extracts and overtures will always be there and can be enjoyed in their own right.

Critics of Wagner's works are disposed to say that they are too long, but this is the consequence of dislike, not its ground. Naturally those who dislike them are going to find them too long. Some passages can be recognized even by enthusiasts as unneccessary (though it is not easy to get agreement on which they are), but none of the mature works is seriously too long for what it is trying to do. Given your remarks in a thread regarding Verdi that storylines in opera are unimportant to you and you are primarily interested in the music and voices, its no surprise Wagner doesn't hold a lot of appeal to you. But it's very possible that someone can take to opera immediately, even if they have no prior experience of it. I know from experience.

When I wanted to experience an opera for the first time, some 15 years ago, I bought the tickets and got a recording of the opera I was about to attend from the library to prep myself for the performance. I was mesmerized and got caught up in the soaring emotions and interplay of words, music and drama from the opening notes.

 

[Itullian]

I'll get the stereo Knapp, as everyone seems to recommend it. Since the Kegel is the only one I have, I've nothing to compare it to, so for now it sounds fine.

There are a couple of very good DVDs of Parsifal.
The Stein is a traditional approach.
The Levine is a beautiful production with a good cast.

Stein's conducting is very good, moves along, and so is the cast.
The production is beautiful.
Levine's is a gorgeous production. Great cast. Moves at a slower pace then Stein.

Both very nice.

 

[philoctetes]

Not all "bleeding chunks" are the same, or even instrumental, so cherry-picking them can be fruitful ha...

you can't judge a CD by the cover...

 

[Mandryka]

Four pages of responses and no one thinks that the best way in to Wagner is Maestersinger.

 

[Becca]

... because the first opera in the Ring isn't so special, it could put you off exploring the rest!

I couldn't disagree more, I believe Rheingold is an excellent place to start. It is less intimidating for the newbie than many parts of any of the rest of the opera partly because it was Wagner's first step in composing the Ring. Also at 1.5 to 2 hours less than any of the others but with many fascinating sections, is easier to digest.