Classical Music Forum banner
21 - 40 of 42 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I'm not averse to remixing, having had to have done it myself a few times...(poor old Delibes). If done well, it can lead to interesting results.
Remixing, apart from an imaginitive approach, has to have high production value imv. @Snik81, I'd advise you put more time into musically sculpting the violin samples, in fact I'd go further and suggest you use a different set (or patch). Massenet's theme is quite schmaltzy and a sampled violin such as Embertones Emotional violin might be a good musical fit. You should also look at the Joshua Bell violin too as his sampled violin is very realistic. Best of all is to find someone willing to play it for you as it is not too difficult, pop it into ableton and you'll be amazed at what listening to the real thing will do for your creativity and production from that point on. The live sound will probably be able to withstand almost any plug-in you butcher it with and still sound musical.

If you stick with samples, concentrate as much on the musical side as the production side and sculpt lead parts with dynamics, phrasing and appropriate cc work, especially for solo string instrument samples as they can sound terrible. It helps if you can read music and have an idea of what a violin does musically in performance. Did you reference a live solo violin recording whilst programming? If not, then that'd be a good starting point to emulate sculpting the samples with and make them sing more.
This is incredible feedback for me - a newbie in Ableton. I have started out using Orchestral Strings from Spitfire Audio with a simple MIDI file, and having played violin myself - am amazed by how well it sounds (still have a lot of work to do on timing and figuring out how to tune the sounds properly). Will check out Embertones though as well. Wish I was skilled enough to record this live on violin, but no chance I'm afraid. If; however I get my music production flying, I will have someone play it live. Just need to know what I'm doing on the production side, so I don't embarrass myself when approaching musicians;) Nothing beats the real thing, and I do hear that this violin is a bit flat - and as you say, needs to sing more. Are you familiar with Orchestral Strings from Spitfire?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Speaking as an insomniac, I don't think I could sleep to this because of the bass drum track. I think it is so prominent that I would focusing on the thumping rather than the melody/accompaniment. I wonder if you replaced it with a sample from a double bass that that would make it more soporific.
That is a very good point. I haven't been able to put my finger on it, and haven' thought to adjust track volumes - but the drums are way too prominent. Will definitely be fixing that. Also; double bass is a good idea - will check it out. I will put the beat in the background where it belongs, and of course mix it up a little - it is currently on repeat throughout the entire song - so it is very monotonous. Thanks for the feedback - appreciate it:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,474 Posts
This is incredible feedback for me - a newbie in Ableton. I have started out using Orchestral Strings from Spitfire Audio with a simple MIDI file, and having played violin myself - am amazed by how well it sounds (still have a lot of work to do on timing and figuring out how to tune the sounds properly). Will check out Embertones though as well. Wish I was skilled enough to record this live on violin, but no chance I'm afraid. If; however I get my music production flying, I will have someone play it live. Just need to know what I'm doing on the production side, so I don't embarrass myself when approaching musicians;) Nothing beats the real thing, and I do hear that this violin is a bit flat - and as you say, needs to sing more. Are you familiar with Orchestral Strings from Spitfire?
Yes I have a lot of SFA sample sets amongst others. All samples have their uses but also many weaknesses especially if realism is the desired effect - which may or not be the case for your project.

What samples can effortlessly bring to a mix is a good sense of acoustic space, given they are more often than not recorded in situ in a hall or live room and with multi mic combinations that are available for tweaking/mixing by the user. The success of remixing in the way you intend to do will be reliant on how well you can produce and how imaginatively you can manipulate the DAW's plug-ins and mastering capabilities as well as keeping the integrity of the notes themselves.

Recording remotely is an option you might consider if you are not ready to do it yourself. I've just had a player record the solo part of my Oboe Concerto remotely and did the same with my Violin Concerto last year. I had two sensational players (one very well known) recording for me. It's not as expensive as you might think so try this site..www.fiverr.com
Search for violinists, get in touch and see what they can offer.

Do you have any SFA strings then?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Yes I have a lot of SFA sample sets amongst others. All samples have their uses but also many weaknesses especially if realism is the desired effect - which may or not be the case for your project.

What samples can effortlessly bring to a mix is a good sense of acoustic space, given they are more often than not recorded in situ in a hall or live room and with multi mic combinations that are available for tweaking/mixing by the user. The success of remixing in the way you intend to do will be reliant on how well you can produce and how imaginatively you can manipulate the DAW's plug-ins and mastering capabilities as well as keeping the integrity of the notes themselves.

Recording remotely is an option you might consider if you are not ready to do it yourself. I've just had a player record the solo part of my Oboe Concerto remotely and did the same with my Violin Concerto last year. I had two sensational players (one very well known) recording for me. It's not as expensive as you might think so try this site..www.fiverr.com
Search for violinists, get in touch and see what they can offer.

Do you have any SFA strings then?
Haha - I notice you are on a different planet in terms of production skills;) You keep throwing some lingo around, that I have to google to try to figure out. SFA sets? I am an absolute noob in production/Ableton. Remote recording is a great tip though - will check out:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,474 Posts
Haha - I notice you are on a different planet in terms of production skills;) You keep throwing some lingo around, that I have to google to try to figure out. SFA sets? I am an absolute noob in production/Ableton. Remote recording is a great tip though - will check out:)
SpitFire Audio...sorry, I should have been clearer..
Try this website too...VI-CONTROL..They have a great community from amateurs to Pros. There are many many threads on everything DAW and samples related, from beginner to advanced. You will find many answers to almost anything you might want to ask there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter · #28 ·
SpitFire Audio...sorry, I should have been clearer..
Try this website too...VI-CONTROL..They have a great community from amateurs to Pros. There are many many threads on everything DAW and samples related, from beginner to advanced. You will find many answers to almost anything you might want to ask there.
Aha - that makes sense - thanks! Yes - I have Orchestral Strings and Strings Ensemble (both included in Suite) - used the former for this track.Think it sounds great, but I have added some reverb that might smudge the sound a little - will try without the reverb. The one thing I have found most frustrating is that the Massenet piece is supposed to slide along the strings in some places, which I have not been able to do in a convincing way with SFA strings. Can see how that might be a challenging task within a DAW, but will try to figure something out. Might have to go for live recording to get that particular feature;) Will definitely check out VI-CONTROL - thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,003 Posts
If you only take your ten favorite movements of Beethoven, there's already an order of 3,628,800 ways to listen to them that will bring about a different vision or sensation of progression. Any of those could be considered art if it's a personal statement you wish to make yourself, like if you threw your own little piece into the middle of someone else's symphony, just to say this is what I really heard coming--they just never wrote it. There's nothing inherently ethical or valueable about it unless you're bored one day and want to hear a new interpretation or flow, sort of along the same lines as a Ravel orchestration--the original composer did most of the work, but you reinterpreted it. Yes I did this with 40 pieces by Uematsu, that were in turn reorchestrated, maybe this inspired your to write this thread, just because I think these pieces sound better in a specific order, or because this new album enhances the composer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Snik81

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,748 Posts
What do you feel about remixing great composers?

I'm all for it. Especially for sleeping.
So, here's my contribution: a remixing of Ludwig van Beethoven -- (we used to call them anagrams)*

avow beveling hunted
avowed bunting helve
avowing Bethune veld
avowing bevel hunted
Bantu devolving whee
Bengal thieved unvow
Benn outweigh valved
Bethanne divulge vow
Bethune loved waving
Bethune loving waved
Bethune owed valving
Bethune owing valved
Bevin Donaugh twelve
Bevin duo wavelength
Bevin toweled Vaughn

behaved gilt unwoven
behaved glint unwove
believed Vaughn wont
believeth dang unvow
believeth Vang wound
belove Hedvig unwant
belove hunted waving
beth leaving unvowed
beth loved unweaving
beth uninvolved wage
beth unloved weaving
beth unloving weaved
beth unvowed vealing
blowgun evident have
danube velveting who
daub eleventh vowing
daub Gweneth involve
daubing eleventh vow
debug nonwhite valve
debug velvet Winonah
debuting Havel woven
debuting halve woven
Evan unbeloved wight
Evvie unbolt whanged
Evvie unbolted whang
Hedvig table unwoven
Hedvig tenable unvow
Hedvig tunable woven
beethoven Ludvig wan
beethoven Ludwig van

... (there are many many more possibilities)

__
* The idea here is to read over the list of the remixed composer, and sleep will not be far behind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,003 Posts
Obee wan Ludvvigne, tho...

Artistic history has just been made.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
233 Posts
I would think that if a 'remix' is done without distribution for profit in mind, then it probably would never get contested for copyright violation. If for example, you shared your work on a private server with no money changing hands, then it is very unlikely that there would be a problem. If you were to post in a YouTube channel, a statement on each such as "Not for sale or redistribution. No copyright infringement intended." would work. I've seen that many times.

Whether a remix is artistic or not is purely subjective. I don't see a remix as an "abomination" by definition. I wish I had the equipment to remix a number of classical music recordings to current DAT standards, and mixing by instrumental shifting throughout the aural space for effect is entertaining in my view. The timpani can rumble from left to right and from front to back any old time it works well. As can all of the other instruments. I suspect that if "pre-technology" composers had our computer technology at their disposal, a number of them would be fine with that. How many is anybody's guess. Those guys didn't have HQ headphones at their disposal.

I say go for it...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Actually, I think it's a good idea. At least interesting. Sometimes it's a good idea to hear something like this from another perspective.

As for the Massenet, I'm reminded of something Aaron Copland said to Keith Emerson when he requested the composer's reaction to his reworking of Fanfare for the Common Man. This is recorded in the Wikipedia article on the ELP song:

Stewart Young, ELP's manager from 1972–present, made this comment on the documentary Beyond the Beginning:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanfare_for_the_Common_Man_(Emerson,_Lake_&_Palmer_song)

I had read somewhere else that Copland enjoyed something ELP did with his music, but encouraged the songwriters to put more of themselves into it.

The important aspect of such a remix is in answering the question, can you make me hear something in a new way? The problem I have with certain works like this, for instance Bernstein's orchestration of Beethoven's Fourteenth String Quartet is that it's basically the same. Merely a lusher string sound. He didn't even bother to add woodwinds, brass, or percussion, and I think that was a great opportunity lost.

My reaction to your remixing of the Meditation from Thaïs is that not enough of you is in it. If you're going to remix it, then mix it up a little! Make it dance around. Add some odd and disjointed rhythms. (Of course, then it wouldn't be very appropriate for sleeping!) Change the instrumentation. Twist the melody a little bit, or add some unusual harmonies. That's what makes a remix interesting for me.

However, I did enjoy listening to it. Very pleasant. But would I want to hear it more than the original? Probably not. But please, keep going! I think some of your ideas are interesting, and the more you play around with this kind of creativity, the more likely your own ideas will start taking a more important place in the final results.
Hello again!

Just wanted to let you know that I have really taken to heart what you wrote. Especially that there is not enough of me in it. I have been struggling with this tune, as I find that the electronica elements are taking up too much space. I have decided to explore the opposite direction and go completely basic on acoustic guitar. Seeing that my guitar skills are not the greatest, I have put Massenet on hold for now - and chosen a simpler tune. Don't know if you like this any better, but I just wanted you to know that your comment made an impact - thanks!

Here's a sketch for the latest tune: The Elise Project — Music for Sleep
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,240 Posts
Hello again!

Just wanted to let you know that I have really taken to heart what you wrote. Especially that there is not enough of me in it. I have been struggling with this tune, as I find that the electronica elements are taking up too much space. I have decided to explore the opposite direction and go completely basic on acoustic guitar. Seeing that my guitar skills are not the greatest, I have put Massenet on hold for now - and chosen a simpler tune. Don't know if you like this any better, but I just wanted you to know that your comment made an impact - thanks!

Here's a sketch for the latest tune: The Elise Project — Music for Sleep
That's pretty nice! I like the slow tempo, makes it really restful. I hope you continue to play around with these melodies!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
190 Posts
Sorry, but I consider this entire idea atrocious. IMO you are desecrating the music, and if you had an ounce of humility you'd write your own music to put people to sleep.
Exactly. Max Richter, are you reading this? If you are so unoriginal that you have to destroy Bach and Vivaldi rather than compose original works, then stay out of the music world and sell shoes or something.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,474 Posts
What mean spirited pearl clutching.
Surely it's preferable to encourage young people into finding music in their own way. I can't think of many other ways that will introduce a young inquiring mind into the subtleties of a great tune than by getting stuck in with a remix within a DAW and all of the creative and technical decisions that then follow. Perhaps a deeper appreciation for the original context will then also follow if it was not already present.
The great works are safe from their reputation, integrity and worth being tarnished by remix projects - the ramparts of the concert hall will see to that. I've seen toxic, echo chamber responses on TC to great composers and great works that have even more potential to damage reputation and standing than a bedroon DAW project.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
That's pretty nice! I like the slow tempo, makes it really restful. I hope you continue to play around with these melodies!
Thanks - really appreciate it. Will definitely keep playing around with this - thinking of making an album called 'Sleeping with some great composers' ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
33,246 Posts
Exactly. Max Richter, are you reading this? If you are so unoriginal that you have to destroy Bach and Vivaldi rather than compose original works, then stay out of the music world and sell shoes or something.
Is it bad that I do like those once in a wile. Renaud Capuçon is coming with a new recording, I am going to buy it. 👍
 
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
Top