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So then why is there so much upset if someone says "avant garde music/hip hop/pop is garbage"? That's as valid a vote as any.
To the extent I am bothered by someone dissing a kind of music I like it is similar to someone saying my wife is ugly (that hasn't happened, but it would be hurtful if it had).

We have a personal stake in the music we find interesting, valuable, good. I consider it a form of rudeness for someone to go out of their way to call music worthless that they know someone likes. It is unnecessary and only designed to be unkind.

But it would not be hurtful to say, "I don't like avant-garde/ hip-hop music."
 

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Discussion Starter · #342 · (Edited)
Further, and following the (inexorable?) logic, ridiculing your particular tastes and preferences is a valid vote, for whatever reason. And if ten or twenty or a thousand join in the derision and disapproval, all you can do is accept their subjective judgement that your subjective preferences are laughable. "You" here being non-specific, of course. Not just "group upset"; why "individual upset"? One "poll" or "cluster" is no better or worse than another.
I quite agree! I believe you may be beginning to understand. :)

[edit]: I can either accept or reject their specific judgement about my preferences as I see fit, as can they about my evaluations of their evaluations. It's all about freedom to be oneself as one contemplates the arts.
 

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hammeredklavier said:
has a practically easy, simplistic, folksy feel that would have worked far better in the context of a village festival in colonial America than Mozart K.465, from the perspective of people in Franklin's place and time.
Those are your subjective opinions. You really can't speak from the perspective of the people in Franklin's time and place. I say it's every bit "as good as" and "deserving as" K. 465. Prove me wrong.
Music written by composers such as Bach and Mozart had its respective social functions.
Hm. Not the oft-mentioned Art of Fugue.
 

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Not the oft-mentioned Art of Fugue.
"Bach gave the title Das Wohltemperirte Clavier to a book of preludes and fugues in all 24 keys, major and minor, dated 1722, composed "for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially for the pastime of those already skilled in this study"."
The purpose of the Art of the Fugue was most likely the same. Lots of 18th century composers employed by the church wrote versets (eg. look at Pasterwitz) and other similar collections of contrapuntal pieces out of necessity (for educational and recreational purposes). That was part of their tradition of profession and craftsmanship. Also, due to the Baroque idiomatic use of rhythm and dynamics in Bach, it may sound to the modern ears like it's not for "entertainment", but the same can be said about just about anything Baroque; Purcell fantasies for viols and Biber sonatas. Once you understand how a fugue or a canon from those times works, there's nothing hard to "get" (I'm not implying Bach lacks inspiration or mastery, by this). I think it's nonsensical to think Bach somehow had an "avant-garde" mindset, actually intended to write things not for "entertainment". Bach himself in his time never actually thought in that way, just like how he thought the Doctrine of the Affections was always the way to compose music; he would have thought the music of the later eras with their mood swings (involving multiple themes), for instance, as lacking focus and confusing.
A while ago MR posted a topic where he suggested Bach was critical of Rameau's theory of harmony and he suggested Bach was old fashioned in his outlook on music. I responded that Rameau's theory was a simplification of the contrapuntal approach to composition. So yes, I have basically thought this for a long time (I don't think MR does, he views counterpoint as a more old fashioned and outdated approach to music making as far as I can tell).
Perhaps this is also related to why Bach didn't write any books on composition but used his music as his teaching material.
 

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I quite agree! I believe you may be beginning to understand. :)

[edit]: I can either accept or reject their specific judgement about my preferences as I see fit, as can they about my evaluations of their evaluations. It's all about freedom to be oneself as one contemplates the arts.
But you really don't, considering you've cried elsewhere about the indignity of having others look down on your preferences.
 

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Discussion Starter · #349 ·
But you really don't, considering you've cried elsewhere about the indignity of having others look down on your preferences.
I don"t recall ever crying about others looking down on my preferences. I clearly recall saying that there are no valid reasons to look down upon the preferences of others. But I am willing to be instructed.
 

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True, but some just may subjectively call it honesty.
One can't subjectively say that hip-hop is garbage unless they qualify it by adding, "to me." Attempting to claim that an entire genre of music is garbage, objectively, is not only untrue, but insulting to anyone who finds value in that music.

Why do we (collectively) engage in this objective/subjective debate so often on TC?
 

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One can't subjectively say that hip-hop is garbage unless they qualify it by adding, "to me."
I thought that went without saying.
Attempting to claim that an entire genre of music is garbage, objectively, is not only untrue...
Huh? It's true to those who say so.
Why do we (collectively) engage in this objective/subjective debate so often on TC?
Because the "subjectivists" are always bringing it up. Who started this thread?
 

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I thought that went without saying.
Not in a discussion of objective/subjective judgments.

I find it more engaging when someone describes their preferences in like/dislike language as opposed to garbage/great language. The former is a conversation starter, the latter a conversation ender, and a hint to me that should avoid that person in the future.
 

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my response is ‘they don’t know their Mozart’.
No one in this thread has said or implied that Bach, Mozart, Beethoven don't deserve the popularity they enjoy today. Even if a person gets strong heart-wrenching feelings (and even weep) from listening to the rondo from the Posthorn serenade, he can still be embarrassed to tell people around him who would respond; "You still listen to this music? Holy.. Do you keep a powdered wig in your closet?" "Wow.. this pleasant.. pleasant stuff.. Real men shouldn't be moved by this."
 

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Not in a discussion of objective/subjective judgments.

I find it more engaging when someone describes their preferences in like/dislike language as opposed to garbage/great language. The former is a conversation starter, the latter a conversation ender, and a hint to me that should avoid that person in the future.
Sorry but I'm detecting traces of some kind of objectivity in statements like that. It's somehow objectively true that nothing is really "garbage". I'm just following the logic of "every vote is equally valid".
 
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