Classical Music Forum banner
381 - 400 of 1661 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,306 Posts
I don't think an extended derail on the subjective nature of social norms, social sanctions for violating those norms, and the concept of tact is really productive.

It boils down to excessively combative, hostile people being bad for discussion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,923 Posts
Discussion Starter · #382 · (Edited)
Well my valid reason, using the Strange Magic rulebook, is that every vote is equal and valid. Surely you're not going to start circumscribing these valid votes with objective restrictions, are you?
Two plus two equals four. You are free to say they equal five. You have every right to your view, but this is an area where there is no valid disavowal of four being the sum of two plus two. There is no valid evidence that one art object, like a planet, is better than another. They just exist.
 

·
Read Only
Joined
·
2,043 Posts
Two plus two equals four. You are free to say they equal five. You have every right to your view, but this an area where there is no valid disavowal of four being the sum of two plus two. There is no valid evidence that one art object, like a planet, is better than another. They just exist.
And there's no valid evidence that one isn't worse than another. I'm as free to think of your playlist as crap as I am free to think of my own as golden. And there's not a bit of evidence you can produce to contradict that. And it's a valid vote.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,923 Posts
Discussion Starter · #385 ·
I don't think an extended derail on the subjective nature of social norms, social sanctions for violating those norms, and the concept of tact is really productive.

It boils down to excessively combative, hostile people being bad for discussion.
I agree. I am looking for a reasoned essay or other presentation from certain people on the subject, rather than a steady stream of commentary--often that requires correction--from the sidelines. Others have, thankfully, been abundant in their explanations of their positions. This post will likely be commented upon from the sidelines as being commentary from the sidelines but I have been fulsome in my repeated presentations of my views. Others, not so much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,306 Posts
Someone pointed out a while ago that there is something of an asymmetry where expressing a liking or enthusiasm for something is less likely to be taken as hostile than expressing disdain or hatred.

This is loosely true, though it's certainly possible to be hostile in the act of expressing that you like something, i.e. "People who don't like x are closed-minded/philistines/deaf". I also don't personally care if someone says they dislike certain works or composers if the topic of discussion is based on whether you like or dislike a certain work of music, or whether you prefer one composer to another. It's less likely to be productive if someone wades into a thread discussing the works of a given composer to opine that said composer is garbage.

Expressing moral judgement over certain works, or especially the listeners of those works is far more problematic- there are very narrow cases where I might see this as justifiable but these aren't very likely to come up in classical music forums.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,923 Posts
Discussion Starter · #387 ·
And there's no valid evidence that one isn't worse than another. I'm as free to think of your playlist as crap as I am free to think of my own as golden. And there's not a bit of evidence you can produce to contradict that. And it's a valid vote.
I agree: there is no contradiction as above. The only question is one of whether one goes out of one's way to antagonize others and to mock their choices. But if it turns you on.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,796 Posts
I am interested in people's passions/enthusiasms, about music, reading, cooking, fishing - it doesn't matter what the subject is, I am interested in hearing about someone's interests. It has been the basis for all my friendships and romantic involvements.

I am very interested when someone talks about the music they love, but am bored when someone tells me about a review they read, or a list of great composers, or that a specific work is considered great.
That's helpful thanks. You're interested in people's reactions and their likes and dislikes.

I'm interested in the objective reasons for specifically, case by case, how such expressiveness is achieved. It's somewhat similar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,923 Posts
Discussion Starter · #389 · (Edited)
Someone pointed out a while ago that there is something of an asymmetry where expressing a liking or enthusiasm for something is less likely to be taken as hostile than expressing disdain or hatred.

This is loosely true, though it's certainly possible to be hostile in the act of expressing that you like something, i.e. "People who don't like x are closed-minded/philistines/deaf". I also don't personally care if someone says they dislike certain works or composers if the topic of discussion is based on whether you like or dislike a certain work of music, or whether you prefer one composer to another. It's less likely to be productive if someone wades into a thread discussing the works of a given composer to opine that said composer is garbage.

Expressing moral judgement over certain works, or especially the listeners of those works is far more problematic- there are very narrow cases where I might see this as justifiable but these aren't very likely to come up in classical music forums.
As I have posted many times, I think it is both true and wise in my case to consider and to state, if necessary, that I am not the intended audience for certain musics or art objects, or that I am ill-equipped in my own mind to judge of some works. Less chance of being considered even more obnoxious to some posters than I already am. :)

BTW the originator of the initial thread was our old stalwart KenOC. I merely resurrected it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,947 Posts
If someone says they hate Baroque music, that's a valid response. If someone says they hate avant garde, that's a personal attack.
Both of those views are neutral opinions, and perfectly acceptable and polite. It doesn't matter if the music that is hated is Baroque or avant-garde, what is being expressed is a personal opinion.

However, saying avant-garde music is garbage is not a neutral opinion, but a value judgment, and disrespectful if said to someone who has just expressed their admiration for a piece of avant-garde music.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,868 Posts
No one in this thread has said or implied that Bach, Mozart, Beethoven don't deserve the popularity they enjoy today. Even if a person gets strong heart-wrenching feelings (and even weep) from listening to the rondo from the Posthorn serenade, he can still be embarrassed to tell people around him who would respond; "You still listen to this music? Holy.. Do you keep a powdered wig in your closet?" "Wow.. this pleasant.. pleasant stuff.. Real men shouldn't be moved by this."
Why do those three deserve the popularity?
 

·
Read Only
Joined
·
2,043 Posts
Both of those views are neutral opinions, and perfectly acceptable and polite. It doesn't matter if the music that is hated is Baroque or avant-garde, what is being expressed is a personal opinion.

However, saying avant-garde music is garbage is not a neutral opinion, but a value judgment, and disrespectful if said to someone who has just expressed their admiration for a piece of avant-garde music.
Saying such and such is "garbage" is the same as saying you hate it, and by the subjectivist view I would think that I am entitled to that 100% valid opinion. Otherwise all this is is a construct through which acceptance or affirmation is required. That doesn't seem like "subjective" to me.
DaveM said:
Why do those three deserve the popularity?
I asked the same thing. It seems like an odd comment after so many posts saying that we only like them because they're "popular". Maybe hammeredklavier is saying that every composer who ever put pen to paper deserves popularity.
 

·
Read Only
Joined
·
2,043 Posts
I agree: there is no contradiction as above. The only question is one of whether one goes out of one's way to antagonize others and to mock their choices. But if it turns you on.....
That isn't for you to judge, is it? I mean we can't know or identify the "good" without identifying the "ungood". With no "ungood" there is no such thing as "good" anyway. It's all good by default. Such comparisons or polarities may or may not be subjective, but you can't talk them out of existence. And anyway, with a firm subjectivist grounding (contradiction, but still) such "antagonism" and "mockery" can just be attributed to another subjective opinion. Nothing personal since it's all personal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,672 Posts
Why do those three deserve the popularity?
What do you think about

Pachelbel - Canon In D Major. Best version. (uploaded on Jan 26, 2008)
74,073,931 views youtube.com/watch?v=NlprozGcs80
Canon in D (Pachelbel's Canon) - Cello & Piano [BEST WEDDING VERSION] (uploaded on Jun 18, 2019)
58,403,735 views youtube.com/watch?v=Ptk_1Dc2iPY
Trans-Siberian Orchestra - Christmas Canon (Official Music Video) [HD] (uploaded on Oct 26, 2009)
39,869,806 views youtube.com/watch?v=4cP26ndrmtg
Pachelbel - Canon in D (Best Piano Version) (uploaded on Jun 4, 2011)
38,556,817 views youtube.com/watch?v=rNsgHMklBW0
pachelbel's Canon in D--Soothing music(the best version) (uploaded on Jul 3, 2007)
33,533,820 views youtube.com/watch?v=hOA-2hl1Vbc
Canon In D | Pachelbel's Canon | 1 Hour Version (uploaded on Apr 26, 2013)
25,641,997 views youtube.com/watch?v=qVn2YGvIv0w

and there are more...
(+there are also rock versions like "Canon Rock - Jerry C cover by Laura Lace", which has over 100 million views)

Air - Johann Sebastian Bach (uploaded on Jan 25, 2010)
74,878,302 views youtube.com/watch?v=rrVDATvUitA
バッハ「G線上のアリア」 Bach "Air on G String"
23,939,523 views youtube.com/watch?v=thQWqRDZj7E
David Garrett - AIR (Johann Sebastian Bach). (uploaded on Oct 14, 2011)
12,066,292 views youtube.com/watch?v=x1ByRGNIpFA
Bach, Air ("on the G string", string orchestra) (uploaded on Feb 26, 2009)
10,505,531 views youtube.com/watch?v=E2j-frfK-yg

(only 4 videos with 10mil+ views and that's it.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,923 Posts
Discussion Starter · #395 ·
That isn't for you to judge, is it? I mean we can't know or identify the "good" without identifying the "ungood". With no "ungood" there is no such thing as "good" anyway. It's all good by default. Such comparisons or polarities may or may not be subjective, but you can't talk them out of existence.
I think it is self-evidently good to not antagonize, belittle, or disrespect publicly others' choices in music, wine, ice cream, or planets. But people are free to do so--that way bad behavior can be seen as the necessary counterpart to good behavior. No Yin without the Yang.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,868 Posts
What do you think about
Pachelbel - Canon In D Major. Best version. (uploaded on Jan 26, 2008)
74,073,931 views youtube.com/watch?v=NlprozGcs80
Canon in D (Pachelbel's Canon) - Cello & Piano [BEST WEDDING VERSION] (uploaded on Jun 18, 2019)
58,403,735 views youtube.com/watch?v=Ptk_1Dc2iPY
Trans-Siberian Orchestra - Christmas Canon (Official Music Video) [HD] (uploaded on Oct 26, 2009)
39,869,806 views youtube.com/watch?v=4cP26ndrmtg
Pachelbel - Canon in D (Best Piano Version) (uploaded on Jun 4, 2011)
38,556,817 views youtube.com/watch?v=rNsgHMklBW0
pachelbel's Canon in D--Soothing music(the best version) (uploaded on Jul 3, 2007)
33,533,820 views youtube.com/watch?v=hOA-2hl1Vbc
Canon In D | Pachelbel's Canon | 1 Hour Version (uploaded on Apr 26, 2013)
25,641,997 views youtube.com/watch?v=qVn2YGvIv0w
and there are more...
(+there are also rock versions like "Canon Rock - Jerry C cover by Laura Lace", which has over 100 million views)

Air - Johann Sebastian Bach (uploaded on Jan 25, 2010)
74,878,302 views youtube.com/watch?v=rrVDATvUitA
バッハ「G線上のアリア」 Bach "Air on G String"
23,939,523 views youtube.com/watch?v=thQWqRDZj7E
David Garrett - AIR (Johann Sebastian Bach). (uploaded on Oct 14, 2011)
12,066,292 views youtube.com/watch?v=x1ByRGNIpFA
Bach, Air ("on the G string", string orchestra) (uploaded on Feb 26, 2009)
10,505,531 views youtube.com/watch?v=E2j-frfK-yg
(only 4 videos with 10mil+ views and that's it.)
Okay, so the popularity of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven is nothing more than that comparable to works appearing in/on most ‘classical-light’ playlists or DVDs. Likewise, to understand the popularity of the works of The Beatles, one need look no further than ‘Yummy, Yummy, Yummy (I’ve got love in my Tummy)’ and ‘I’m Henry the Eighth I Am’. Got it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,947 Posts
Saying such and such is "garbage" is the same as saying you hate it
Oh, no, I find that the two statements are completely different. As I said saying one "hates" a piece of music is an opinion about taste in music. However, saying that the music is "garbage", is an attempt to characterize the music with an implication that the speaker has the expertise to make such a value judgment.

The first opinion is a perfectly acceptable expression of personal preference.

The second claim cannot be supported since no one can have such expertise to characterize and entire genre of music as garbage, and it would be hard to justify even concerning a single work. For every expert that says a work is garbage there will be two to say it is a masterpiece.
 

·
Read Only
Joined
·
2,043 Posts
I think it is self-evidently good to not antagonize, belittle, or disrespect publicly others' choices in music, wine, ice cream, or planets. But people are free to do so--that way bad behavior can be seen as the necessary counterpart to good behavior. No Yin without the Yang.
"Self-evidently good"? What on earth do you mean? Like Bach is "self-evidently great"? Since it's all just subjective personal opinion, and each opinion is valid, it's not really possible to antagonize, belittle or disrespect except in the eyes of those who aren't quite as enlightened about the validity of subjective votes. It's not "bad behavior"; it's voicing your equally valid opinion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
199 Posts
Okay, so the popularity of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven is nothing more than that comparable to works appearing in/on most ‘classical-light’ playlists or DVDs. Likewise, to understand the popularity of the works of The Beatles, one need look no further than ‘Yummy, Yummy, Yummy (I’ve got love in my Tummy)’ and ‘I’m Henry the Eighth I Am’. Got it.
I agree with hammered's implied point that some things aren't necessarily more popular because they are "the best", but I think people should be careful to go overboard with the idea and conclude that no popular work has "earned" its popularity or that no work of art can be better (in some respects) than others (not saying that this is what Hammered believes, but this is for our dear audience who might get the wrong idea)
 
381 - 400 of 1661 Posts
Top