Why do many people think that classical music composed for film scores is not classical music?

Hey Hans congratulations on the Oscar...

If you listen to John William's 1st Violin Concerto and then compare it to his film work, you might get a sense of why he himself considers his film work distinct and a different musical aesthetic and technique to his concert work. Comparison of the two disciplines at work (yes, they are different disciplines in crucial areas), from a compositional and sounding point of view should go all the way to answering your question.

I've said this before in conversation with member Fabulin (who will chime in no doubt and make me waver in my opinion on the OP dilemna), that JW is quite unique in that his cue writing (as opposed to his excellent theme writing), is good enough to pass off as a more serious stand alone offering in the concert hall.

But it is rather telling that when he sits down and purposely writes for the concert hall, the language in particular is much more personal and one hears that his mindset and expressive reach is different and more personal. In other words just what you expect from absolute music, that of music from a deeper place within who's genesis is not instigated by what is fundamentally utility.

From the composing pov, there is a considerable difference in mindset, circumstance, technique and crucially, expressive freedom between composing a cue/theme for film and writing music for its own sake. As a result of this I find that if one defines concert music as being an expression of the composer's own, untrammelled personality and artistry, as indeed I do, then it becomes that bit harder to see a justification for music that is dictated to in every aspect - from timings through to orchestration - to be classed unequivocably in the same way as perhaps a symphony, concerto or sonata.

Opera and ballet are not included in my distinction because music written for those genres is largely free from external expressive restraint other than service to dialogue, story telling and/or danceability. Likewise, there is no strict enforcement of timings, orchestration (other than numerical) and the composer's mindset and creative options have as much freedom in the language they use along with the expressive reach they wish to convey.

That said, I'm personally very happy to hear the best film work in the concert hall and love a lot of it. I can also see why others wont be bothered with the distinctions I make here. But a someone who has worked in both disciplines I am acutely aware that there is a fundamental difference in the compositional process for the two genres that utterly dictates the musical result. As always ymmv and on this, mine still does occasionally, especially when JW is on the programme.

DaveM said:

I did, but I wasn’t convinced of your reasoning. Some soundtracks which have snippets of music throughout to coincide with what’s going on in the movie would not remind me of classical music, but other soundtracks that have what is essentially a work (such as my examples) and full-fledged segments indicating a love-scene or whatnot do.

I ask again in another way: Why are avant-garde works with no melody, no harmony and, frequently, dissonance throughout considered classical music and film-related music with a melody, harmony and use of instrumentation that reminds of classical music is not?

I understand that you feel that a difference in the mindset of the composer is a factor, but I’m not convinced that the major film music composers would agree. (More likely, they wouldn’t care. )

Just for the record, my position is that some, not all, film music reminds of classical music. And if push comes to shove, I’m not as fired up about the subject as some here -those on the side of dismissing all film music as classical music- seem to be.

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The answer Dave to my way of thinking might lie in the idea that personal artistry and profundity expresses only itself in a concert work and not any extraneous aspects that severely limit the reach of the expression - music for music's sake. One could also argue, depending upon one's tastes, that because film music has to have immediate appeal for commercial reasons (whilst not drawing too much attention to itself for the most part), and is therefore written as such, then this is also a limit on a composer's personal expressive reach. Also, approved film music is most likely to include the aesthetic and emotional input of a director, and/or producer and even an editor, not to mention a music producer or a supervisor, irrespective of the technical demands. It may even include 'influence' from a temp track. You very often have to 'let go' of your best moments in a cue and leave them lying on the proverbial cutting room floor.

The composer often has a battle on his hands getting music approved via committee and trying to please many egos within a deadline and get paid is a great motivator to compromise all round musically speaking. The "A" list of composer's are known for their way of thinking and sounding and are employed for those very reasons, but even their voices are hampered by the reality and practicalities of scoring. One thinks of Zimmer's cue in Gladiator where he had no choice but to pastiche Prokofiev's 'Romance' from Lt. Kije, not exactly the most personal of utterances right? Worse still was Horner's utter rip-off of Britten's 'Sanctus' from his 'War Requiem'. Admittedly Horner was under a severe and pressing deadline with which to try and conquer the temp track of Britten's. Regardless of that, the music ended up more Britten than Horner and as a result also ended up in court. These are extreme examples of how individual expression is compromised in scoring but instances like this and how they affect a resulting score are a contributing factor imv as to the ambiguity of film score status in the concert hall. It has to be said too that only a handful of film composers actually have the training to create concert music or rather, have 'classical' training that infuses and informs their film work.

So the trials and compromises of film scoring are not ideal conditions with which to create art to the highest of standards we hear in the concert hall imo. That said, I don't object to the end result of a committe process being in a concert hall programme for the most part. But the purity if you like, of a composer's expression is severly restricted and maybe even tainted in film work and at worst not in evidence at all. This may or may not matter to the listener who prefers immediacy in music. It bothers me slightly because as I've mentioned, what the composer writes for film is not what they would write for the concert hall at all, Williams, Hermann and others prove this and I personally know it. Oh, and the art of music has much more to offer than instant gratification imo.

I'm not engaging you on Fernyhough because I know where that's coming from with you and we'll never agree aesthetically speaking because I don't bemoan the decline of CP writing as much as you do ....

EDIT...I've just remembered that a well known classically trained and respected composer used to have a bonfire party when he'd completed a film score to ceremoniously burn the manuscripts, such was the disdain he had for the resulting music. Damn though, I can't remember who it was...Fabulin any ideas? He was a golden age composer iirc.

pianozach said:

LOL. "Trailers music". That's actually an entirely different category (although there certainly is a lot of overlap).

I find it amusing that music found in some trailers aren't actually part of the actual film's soundtrack. Sometimes scenes in a trailer end up being cut from the final version of the film.

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You are probably aware that there is a whole industry based on composers supplying trailer music to music libraries and the film industry. These are generally not A or even B listers nor even the composer who has been commissioned to do a score.

Trailer music is also where a form of composing for film known as 'Epic' is often used. The music is designed to sell the film and as such is often derivative and the production and emotion is hyped up way over the top i.e. epic, even for film. So called 'Epic' genres are used especially in sci-fi and fast paced action film trailers and are often characterised by heavy percussion, full on and loud orchestration and a somewhat bombastic mood. I'm guessing but from my experiences, I bet some trailer music has at least made it as temp tracks for editing and some have probably gone all the way and ended up as part of the final score.
In a way, you can think of trailer music in the same way one might think of advertising music, in that the aims of both are the same - to sell a product.

HansZimmer said:

Can we say that John Williams, Hans Zimmer, Alan Menken, Thomas Newman, Ennio Morricone, Alan Silvestri and others COMPOSE music for a general purpose and then they ARRANGE it to fit the scenes of the film?
While they are COMPOSING the music they are already thinking about how it would sound outside of the film (because they want to sell albums and tickets for concerts), although when they arrange it they have to think about the images of the film.

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Nope, that's not how it is. They may have bottom drawer music rejected from other projects that they can re-purpose and that might even include a suitable theme. Actually all media composers have big bottom drawers full to bursting of rejected music however generally speaking, each score has its own unique set of issues and needs to be written bespoke and in collaboration the director, producer etc.

Writing music to film is also instinctual, responding to the emotional and practical needs of any particular moment in the film with the appropriate mood, so clairvoyance is out too. The bottom drawer is useful if a composer is lucky, but not the answer to the puzzle a composer is beset with in writing a score. As part of solving that puzzle, composers will also strive to find a 'soundworld' for a score and that can only be done with the film and brief in front of them and after much thought and experimentation.

The only scenario where music is pre-written to a certain emotion or mood is in Library Tracks and there is a huge industry supplying such tracks to media. These can be used by editors as temps and some might even make it to the final cut but very, very rarely does this happen.

Nice try though HZ....

Modern scoring has a different aesthetic and technical paradigm to the JW/Goldsmith/Hermann tradition which was much more traditionally based when it comes to composing. There is also directorial and commercial pressure involved that has been totally influenced by the digital means of creation and musical tropes that have developed in a more sustained fashion since the early 90's (ish) to accompany moods on screen. These ubiquitous tropes allied to the ease of creating music have all but democratised the job of film scoring to the point where in theory (but certainly not in practice), composers who are technically ignorant of the older school of composing can potentially break into the industry and do very well.

I personally don't mind this so much because imv, the film experience can and does benefit from a vastly expanded pallette of sound and approach even if that sometimes means a blander, stereotypical kind of music (Marvel,DC et al in particular) which I'm not much of a fan of. Occassionally there are real gems of approach and effect in scoring from quirky and unique individuals that contribute greatly to a film as a result of a different musical upbringing.