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Well this might be one case where your "blockbuster" observation might apply. The Godfather score is inextricably linked to the movie, and I don't think it's very interesting at all apart from that context, whether it's "classical" or not. YMMV
I think that's right. It's effective film music for a great film. It enhances the moods but doesn't get in the way..

Talking with a couple of people who I know and have been trained to write music for films, I understand that it is often advised that film music should not distract from the film which can leave a fine line between staying in the background and enhancing the action in some way. Perhaps the genius of John Williams is that he can push strongly in the latter direction so that his music becomes a vital feature without which the films might sometimes seem rather limp.
 

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Classic FM is far from being open to novelty. Witness the recent "scandal" wrt some Hendrix by Nigel Kennedy. But more importantly, naming pastiche as contemporary classical music while totally side-lining genuine contemporary classical music will end up killing classical music.
I agree, but if you think that Classic FM should be open to novelty then you shouldn't reject music from films and videogames. So, you should say that Classic FM should be open to everything of the new world.

Furthermore, If it's true that in the field of arts you can't set too many rigid rules, because this would limit the artistic expression, then also the content of the quote below must be rejected.

I do. It's short attention span music flitting from one idea to the next. The main heroic theme is repeated over and over with no significant development. There are cheesy arbitrary modulations all over. The orchestration is full of cliche gestures like the sweeping harp and string flourishes. I couldn't imagine this being mistaken for a movement from a symphony.
I agree that the main theme is repeated too many times in the end credits of Indiana Jones. Futhermore, I can say that I don't nether like so much the theme.
However this a matter of tastes: it doesn't have anything to do with the question of this thread.

Indeed, there are musical pieces that are universally considered classical music that are built around a main theme which is repeated many times. Some classical music pieces have too much repetition for their lenght, according to me.


So, if what you want to say is that John Williams could do a better work in this case I agree, but you can't say thata piece is not classical music because it has features that in classical music are not uncommon.
But the problem is: would it make sense to establish the rule that in classical music repetition is forbidden? And what if someone would establish the rule that is forbidden to break the rules of the harmony? If you want free artistic expression you can not establish rigid rules only to accomplish your personal tastes.

To conclude, I didn't post the end credits of Indiana Jones because I think that it's the best example of good film music, but only to make an example of a piece that it's self-contained.

Indeed, although all people are voting for Indiana Jones in Talkclassical best film score award - 1990, I'm the only one who voted for the Little Mermaid.

 

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We can discuss anime music in the same way, there are very strong elements of classical music in that sub-genre. My experience is that the Japanese have embraced CM in a much stronger way than we westerners can grasp. I think that because of anime sub-genres like Yu-gi-oh, Hello Kitty, SpongeBob, and Transformers with their sucessful worldwide marketing efforts has resulted in a total disrespect for the word "Anime" here at CM. Maybe some day I will use Spotify to demonstrate the point that most of you will always miss excellence because of a misunderstanding of that art form, yet you've not experienced enough of it to know. 🌞
 

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Some film music could absolutely be called "classical" music and some can not. I believe the greatest contemporary "classical" music written today is in movies. I believe many contemporary and modern composers and fans of "classical" music reject film music as being classified as "classical" for a variety of reasons. Not least of all because much of the film music that could be considered classical and could stand on it's own also reveals how pathetic and awful some contemporary classical music is. There is some great 20th century and modern classical music out there, but no one is convincing me that there is a good deal that is just a sham. Talentless composers who write things that no one could objectively say is a better composition than from another modern composer. There are no more rules and that's why there is so much chaos in modern art. Try writing a film score with no rules involved, no theme, no structure. See how that works.

V
 

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Some film music could absolutely be called "classical" music and some can not. I believe the greatest contemporary "classical" music written today is in movies. I believe many contemporary and modern composers and fans of "classical" music reject film music as being classified as "classical" for a variety of reasons. Not least of all because much of the film music that could be considered classical and could stand on it's own also reveals how pathetic and awful some contemporary classical music is. There is some great 20th century and modern classical music out there, but no one is convincing me that there is a good deal that is just a sham. Talentless composers who write things that no one could objectively say is a better composition than from another modern composer. There are no more rules and that's why there is so much chaos in modern art. Try writing a film score with no rules involved, no theme, no structure. See how that works.

V
I can understand your sentiment, 20th century music hasn't left a good impression on me either, though I'm reserving my judgment until I listen to more works.

But I hope you're aware that a statement like that is not going to be received well. I've noticed that in older threads, someone expressing dislike of modern classical is usually ganged up on. I can understand the initial response, since opinions about modern classical are often stated as fact & it can be insensitive to people who like that style, but it often goes overboard as even posters who discuss in good faith are bullied.
 

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(film music)...... also reveals how pathetic and awful some contemporary classical music is. There is some great 20th century and modern classical music out there, but no one is convincing me that there is a good deal that is just a sham. Talentless composers who write things that no one could objectively say is a better composition than from another modern composer. There are no more rules and that's why there is so much chaos in modern art. Try writing a film score with no rules involved, no theme, no structure. See how that works.

V
There are rules (i.e. techniques), in much contemporary art/concert music, there has to be in order to impose will. Obviously they are not the kind of techniques used hundreds of years ago but they could also be adaptations and developments of past practices. Using different techniques does not imv imply inferiority in any way. Ironically I think it's fair to say that the "rules" are the root cause of alienation from the last hundred years or so of music for some listeners.

From what I know of film scoring, there are some composers I've heard about, who do not follow compositional rules because they don't actually know them, preferring to work on instinctual musical wits, employing trained professionals and and being able to deliver high end production quality. Some are rather good at it too and have influenced the genre away from any classical model of film scoring, such as Williams' more traditional approach.
 

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Some film music could absolutely be called "classical" music and some can not. I believe the greatest contemporary "classical" music written today is in movies. I believe many contemporary and modern composers and fans of "classical" music reject film music as being classified as "classical" for a variety of reasons. Not least of all because much of the film music that could be considered classical and could stand on it's own also reveals how pathetic and awful some contemporary classical music is. There is some great 20th century and modern classical music out there, but no one is convincing me that there is a good deal that is just a sham. Talentless composers who write things that no one could objectively say is a better composition than from another modern composer. There are no more rules and that's why there is so much chaos in modern art. Try writing a film score with no rules involved, no theme, no structure. See how that works.

V
Using some film music as a substitute for the contemporary classical music that you are failing to find is a common reason, I think, for people wanting to term orchestral film music as "classical". I am not sure why, though, it is so difficult for you to just say "I like some orchestral film music as much as I like the classical music of the past".

It is fair enough that you don't like much real contemporary classical music. You don't have to. You are not alone in it. But it is strange to say so when there is such a huge variety of it. Something for everyone I would have thought. But the way you go on to typify contemporary music suggests you prefer to focus your attention on music that you don't like (and possibly don't understand - hence your reference to "chaos"). Maybe you need to feel angry about something? However it is, and while I acknowledge that you are entitled to your own taste, I really don't think you should dismiss composers and their music as "talentless" and "sham", especially while claiming objectivity. Why would someone spend their life pretending and struggling for their pretences to be heard? It just doesn't ring true. Also, you must be aware that many people actually enjoy and like - and claim to be uplifted and moved by - the music you are dismissing. So you must also feel they are deluded or feigning it ... or what? You dismiss a lot of people's integrity in your need to justify a taste that is just that: a taste that is no more valid than theirs.
 

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I can understand your sentiment, 20th century music hasn't left a good impression on me either, though I'm reserving my judgment until I listen to more works.

But I hope you're aware that a statement like that is not going to be received well. I've noticed that in older threads, someone expressing dislike of modern classical is usually ganged up on. I can understand the initial response, since opinions about modern classical are often stated as fact & it can be insensitive to people who like that style, but it often goes overboard as even posters who discuss in good faith are bullied.
I wonder if you find my response to Varick to be bullying? I wonder if you can substantiate your claim that posters who "discuss (their dislike of modern music) in good faith" have often been bullied in the past. Is it a new type of defence (passive aggression?) for conservative musical tastes to say "oh, we better not say what we really think here". Personally, I welcome the expression of opinions about music (it is what this forum is for) but not when those who hold opposite opinions are dismissed as frauds or the like. I suppose also that I can find it a bit tiresome to see, as used sometimes to happen, all modern music dismissed in threads that are specifically about appreciating and enjoying modern music!

Anyway, my point is - if you have something valid to say then spit it out but try to do it without insulting others.
 

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So, if what you want to say is that John Williams could do a better work in this case I agree, but you can't say thata piece is not classical music because it has features that in classical music are not uncommon.
If that was what I wanted to say I would have said it. I said nothing of the kind. I said that sharing features with classical works is irrelevant.

But the problem is: would it make sense to establish the rule that in classical music repetition is forbidden? And what if someone would establish the rule that is forbidden to break the rules of the harmony? If you want free artistic expression you can not establish rigid rules only to accomplish your personal tastes.
You left out the context. You wrote that you "don't see the difference between writing a symphonic movement and writing this." I argued that no one stylistically competent in classical music would mistake the end credit music you posted for a classical symphonic movement. It has nothing to do with "breaking the rules" about repetition or harmony. It's that the cheesy modulations are obviously there for expediency — Williams probably didn't want to rescore a passage so he just shoehorned it in from earlier. Nor is the repetition itself the problem, it's that there is no development or progress in the material. In short, overall it sounds like a cut and paste job. Real classical symphonic movements — the ones that get performed — don't.

To conclude, I didn't post the end credits of Indiana Jones because I think that it's the best example of good film music, but only to make an example of a piece that it's self-contained.
I wasn't addressing whether or not it's self-contained, only whether it can pass for a classical symphonic movement as you suggested.
 

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I wonder if you find my response to Varick to be bullying? I wonder if you can substantiate your claim that posters who "discuss (their dislike of modern music) in good faith" have often been bullied in the past. Is it a new type of defence (passive aggression?) for conservative musical tastes to say "oh, we better not say what we really think here". Personally, I welcome the expression of opinions about music (it is what this forum is for) but not when those who hold opposite opinions are dismissed as frauds or the like. I suppose also that I can find it a bit tiresome to see, as used sometimes to happen, all modern music dismissed in threads that are specifically about appreciating and enjoying modern music!

Anyway, my point is - if you have something valid to say then spit it out but try to do it without insulting others.
Your reply was fine.

I didn't say I completely agree with him, I sympathize, but I also see the value in the experimentation of modern music. Am I supposed to assume that you're taking what I said as a passive aggressive slight against modern music? Why do you assume that my intent is to insult? I merely criticized the tendency of people on this forum to gang up on the more conservative posters (Although to be fair, most of the users who took part in the pile-ons don't seem to be active here anymore). I didn't say that he shouldn't share his opinions, my point was, if you're going to say something controversial, you better be ready to potentially stir up a hornet's nest, and that you should be more careful & considerate about what you say.

Granted, if your issue with my post is that my claim, that "good faith posters are bullied" is unsubstantiated, I understand. You seem to imply that it's not the case, but honestly I've been browsing old threads here for a few months and I'd rather trust what I've seen rather take your word for it that there wasn't any bullying. I'm feeling lazy and I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to dig up old posts. Anyone who is interested can simply read the numerous old threads and figure things out for themselves.

You have a right to be frustrated with the posters insulting modern music, I likewise have a right to feel frustrated at pile-ons.
 

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But I hope you're aware that a statement like that is not going to be received well. I've noticed that in older threads, someone expressing dislike of modern classical is usually ganged up on.
It works both ways.
There have been many proponents of modern music that have been driven out of this forum. Two of them are Some Guy and Mahlerian. I know of many more.

In the old Amazon music forum, the anti-modernists were effective in suppressing all discussions of modern music for over a year.
 
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In a lot of cases one of the things that makes me feel weirdest about this whole topic is an implied elevation of orchestral film music when film music is all over the place stylistically.

To put it another way rhe question of whether "film music" is classical music makes zero sense. Film music isn't a style at all, it's a discipline, or occupation.
 

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It works both ways.
There have been many proponents of modern music that have been driven out of this forum. Two of them are Some Guy and Mahlerian. I know of many more.

In the old Amazon music forum, the anti-modernists were effective in suppressing all discussions of modern music for over a year.
That's unfortunate. I don't firmly consider myself part of the "anti-modernist" camp, I just feel compelled to support whichever side I notice is the "underdog", just to keep a balance.

I will acknowledge that I may be wrong about the bullying. There were many deleted posts I did not see so I don't have the whole picture. It may also just be my confirmation bias.
 

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I can understand your sentiment, 20th century music hasn't left a good impression on me either, though I'm reserving my judgment until I listen to more works.

But I hope you're aware that a statement like that is not going to be received well. I've noticed that in older threads, someone expressing dislike of modern classical is usually ganged up on. I can understand the initial response, since opinions about modern classical are often stated as fact & it can be insensitive to people who like that style, but it often goes overboard as even posters who discuss in good faith are bullied.
Yeah, poor anti-modernists and strictly fans of common practice are so persecuted around here.:rolleyes:

I see you are a recent member here, so you may not know the history of TC. But there was a time, not too long ago, that the anti-modernist sentiment was so strong around here, that one could start a thread on modern music, and many anti-modernists around here would find a way to wedge in some anti-modernist snark. In fact, it seemed they would find a way to make anti-modernist remarks even on threads that had nothing to do with modern and contemporary classical music.

I remember one particular thread started by a relative noob of classical music, who started a thread on recommendations for serialism, because he just heard some, and was intrigued. By early on the 2nd page, the anti-modernists took over the thread with snarky comments, each patting each on the back.

There have been more than just a few fans of modern classical music that have left this place.

So, you might have to excuse some of us fans of 20th century, modern, avant-garde and contemporary classical for having a bit of a knee jerk reaction to some comments around here.
 

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I can understand your sentiment, 20th century music hasn't left a good impression on me either, though I'm reserving my judgment until I listen to more works.

But I hope you're aware that a statement like that is not going to be received well. I've noticed that in older threads, someone expressing dislike of modern classical is usually ganged up on. I can understand the initial response, since opinions about modern classical are often stated as fact & it can be insensitive to people who like that style, but it often goes overboard as even posters who discuss in good faith are bullied.
I appreciate the sentiment and looking out, but I've been here for 8 years now. Plus I am the youngest of five children with three older brothers. Not to mention, I used to hold the flashlight for my father. So, I have thick skin and am not prone to being bullied or have my feelings hurt. Especially on an internet board. Again, good looking out.

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It works both ways.
There have been many proponents of modern music that have been driven out of this forum. Two of them are Some Guy and Mahlerian. I know of many more.

In the old Amazon music forum, the anti-modernists were effective in suppressing all discussions of modern music for over a year.
Me too. Many of my most valued collaborators left for the same reason a couple of years ago. I remember one - a student of composition who would share interesting new music he had come across - who would get several members responding dismissively to threads he had started, threads that they actually have no interest in. He gave up but before he did I had discovered from him a number of pieces that I have listened to often and enjoy greatly. There could have been more!
 

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Me too. Many of my most valued collaborators left for the same reason a couple of years ago. I remember one - a student of composition who would share interesting new music he had come across - who would get several members responding dismissively to threads he had started, threads that they actually have no interest in. He gave up but before he did I had discovered from him a number of pieces that I have listened to often and enjoy greatly. There could have been more!
That is the strangest part.

I do not begrudge anyone their personal taste, nor their dislike for modern classical. It is the need (maybe too strong a word) to post on threads started by those looking for more modern music recommendations, that many of the anti-modernists have.

With only a few notable exceptions, I do not listen to any classical music earlier than the 1920's, and most of the music I listen to is from post WWII. But I have never once posted on a thread about someone looking for more Baroque or Classical era recommendations.
 
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