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Discussion Starter · #282 ·
"So, what does the movie "sense and sensibility" have to do with Dances with Wolves?"

No idea...why do you ask?
You wrote.

"Yes, but John Barry won for Dances with Wolves. "

It's like to say that the score of "Sense and sensibility" lost because Dances with Wolves won.
 

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You wrote.

"Yes, but John Barry won for Dances with Wolves. "

It's like to say that the score of "Sense and sensibility" lost because Dances with Wolves won.
No, it's not. You asked if Dave Grusin got an Oscar nom for Havana. I said yes, it did, but he lost to John Barry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #284 ·

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film music is composed to accompany images; classical music, mainly excerpts, can be used in films (mozart, schubert pärt, ligeti, marshall); some classical composers contributed excellent film music (prokofiev, takemitsu, schnittke) and sometimes the music is so good that they created a special version for the concert hall.you notice that then the intention is to create music that is adapted to the concert hall and becomes classical. if takemitsu composes the score for ran which is exceptional it remains film music because kurosawa has requested him to compose mahler-like music to accompany the images of the film. so it remains film music. the quality of the music produced by john williams and hans zimmer for film is very high but the intention is to compose film music and therefore it is not classical music. moreover these two composers borrow too heavily from classical composers, to put it mildly.
like some rock compositions john williams' film scores are sometimes played by an orchestra in a concert hall which does not make them classical music; classical music is made by people who are taught by classical masters or are self-taught but intend to compose for the concert hall. it is just a matter of category and i love film music as much as classical music. maybe it is even more emotional because it is meant to be so.
 

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..the quality of the music produced by john williams and hans zimmer for film is very high but the intention is to compose film music and therefore it is not classical music. moreover these two composers borrow too heavily from classical composers, to put it mildly..
That‘s too simplistic. On that basis, let’s exclude church/religious-related music: masses, requiems, choruses. Not to mention that the last sentence above, if true, rather than supporting your argument, is a giveaway as to why some film music can be easily confused with CM. It is evident to me that some composers of film music go through a similar process in composing such music as a composer dedicated to CM would, regardless of whether it is for a film or not.
 

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That‘s too simplistic. On that basis, let’s exclude church/religious-related music: masses, requiems, choruses. Not to mention that the last sentence above, if true, rather than supporting your argument, is a giveaway as to why some film music can be easily confused with CM. It is evident to me that some composers of film music go through a similar process in composing such music as a composer dedicated to CM would, regardless of whether it is for a film or not.
i doubt that a classical composer dedicated to his art would rip off other composers.
 

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That‘s too simplistic. On that basis, let’s exclude church/religious-related music: masses, requiems, choruses. Not to mention that the last sentence above, if true, rather than supporting your argument, is a giveaway as to why some film music can be easily confused with CM. It is evident to me that some composers of film music go through a similar process in composing such music as a composer dedicated to CM would, regardless of whether it is for a film or not.
Well, church music is written to the glory of God. Fil music is written to accompany and perhaps accentuate film.
 

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So Dave's comparison is not helpful for a criticism of an earlier post that he was making! Do keep up! ;)
Well yes it was. If film music is written specifically for films and thus is not CM, why is music that was specifically written for the church and, for that matter, often written for, or representing, specific occasions such as Masses and Requiems, considered to be CM?
 

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Liturgical music is part of the direct lineage of classical music, which is probably why there's less controversy (notably religious music traditions that developed later, or outside the classical "lineage" like Western/American hymns are less associated with being considered "classical music").

"Film music" as a general term is clearly not classical music but the practice of playing orchestral film music in concert/recording can easily be considered so.
 

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Well yes it was. If film music is written specifically for films and thus is not CM, why is music that was specifically written for the church and, for that matter, often written for, or representing, specific occasions such as Masses and Requiems, considered to be CM?
What a strange perspective. I am not religious at all but great religious music was not just written for the church (even if the church commissioned it) or events in the church calendar. And I supdo not suppose it was merely expected to emphasise the message of the mass or whatever: rather, it represented it and behind all that was the aim of glorifying God, albeit usually a God as described by the Church. For the same to be said of film music is to elevate Jaws - of some aspect of it - to deity and the music of Jaw to being a representation of the film.
 

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What a strange perspective. I am not religious at all but great religious music was not just written for the church (even if the church commissioned it) or events in the church calendar. And I supdo not suppose it was merely expected to emphasise the message of the mass or whatever: rather, it represented it and behind all that was the aim of glorifying God, albeit usually a God as described by the Church. For the same to be said of film music is to elevate Jaws - of some aspect of it - to deity and the music of Jaw to being a representation of the film.
You’re missing the point completely.
 

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In the "Movie Corner" I opened a poll about the film scores which got the nomination "Best original score" in the Academy Awards (Oscars) of 1990: Talkclassical best film score award - 1990

This is for the first part of the competition Talkclassical best film score award.

Now, the score of the film "The Fabulous Baker Boys" (one of the film nominated in 1990) could be probably classified as Jazz (see for example the first theme) and Intrumental pop (see for example the second theme).


I think that no one would say that this is not jazz music because it was composed for a film. No one would say "this is not jazz but film music". Indeed, film music is not a genre of music: it only means that the music was composed for a film.

However, the other four nominated film scores, I think that can be classified as "romantic music".
Usually, the film scores which get a nomination for the "Best original scores" are more or less classical music.

That's why the radio Classic FM started to insert some film scores in the competition Classic FM Hall of Fame.
Their decision is criticized by many people. Read for example this article of the journal "The Guardian": Can film music ever be classical?

The argument of the writer of this article is that film scores can never be classified as "classical music" because they are composed for images and not for concerts (so, it is not standalone music, but a part of the movie).
If this argument is valid, then we must conclude that the score of "The Fabulous Baker Boys" is not jazz because it was composed for images and not for concerts.

However, I agree that pure "motion music" is not extractable from it's context, but the best film scores (the one who win at The Academy Awards) are not simply "motion music": it's music that can be extracted as standalone music. Indeed, the best score composers sell tickets for concerts.


Maybe the real reason of these people is that they think that John Williams is not as good as Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and so on and they see classical music as a "closed enclosure" where you can enter only if you have a special permission.
If it is so, still I don't see the logic: you don't have to be Roger Federer for being a tennis player. So, you could simply say "Peter is a tennis player but not the number one" and "John Williams is a classical music composer but not the number one".

You might say that Bach is the number one and John Williams only an ordinary composer, if you think this, but I don't see the logic of "the closed enclosure".
Someone could for example say that the composer of "The Fabulous Baker Boys" is a poor jazz composer, but it's still jazz.


To conclude, my opinion is that much of the music composed for film scores is good classical music: "good" is my personal judgement, but every one can have his own.
If you ask me "Don't you hear the difference between classical music and film scores?", my anwser is that usually film scores are built around one or more powerful themes, while some pieces in classical music are not so melody focused.
I won't say that film scores don't have their distinticive rules, but that those rules are compatible with classical music, because there are many pieces that are considered "classical" that are built around a main theme.
"Spring" of Vivaldi is a good example.
The idea that classical music must be "chaotic" is only a personal preference of some people and not a rule that every composer must respect.
In another recent thread, I explained my reasoning as to the distinction between classical and popular music, though the distinction is not an absolute, "bright line" boundary, as few things in the arts are. Movie music generally is very much a popular music genre, which does not mean it is not deserving of the utmost respect. John Williams in particular is an excellent composer even though I would classify most of his work as popular music. He probably is one of the last living standard bearers of a wonderful popular music tradition, one that peaked in the "golden age" of Hollywood movies from the 1930s to the 1960s.
 
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