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Originally posted by hammeredklavier:
"But in moments where avant-garde techniques are crucially indispensable for conveying extreme horror, the techniques must be used."

Nonsense. Ennio Morricone wrote one of the most famous, best horror film scores to one of the greatest (and goriest) horror films of all time, John Carpenter's The Thing and used no avant-garde techniques at all. The whole score was very subtle and nuanced, and should be a lesson to all that came after. As no surprise to anyone, it wasn't.
 

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Whatever music accompanied the earliest horror movies, it wasn't what we would now regard as the 20th C avant-garde. Dracula (1931) used Tchaikovsky, Wagner and Schubert!
No wonder why the general public doesn't find that primitive horror stuff (which came before the conventions established by figures such as Stanley Kubrick) auditorily scary anymore.
 

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No wonder why the general public doesn't find that primitive horror stuff (which came before the conventions established by figures such as Stanley Kubrick) auditorily scary anymore.
Ironic since I don't find any modern horror movies the least bit scary, let alone interesting. I'll take Psycho, The Birds, The Haunting (1963), Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? and a whole slew of other "primitive stuff" over the predictable, boring, computer-generated "cartoons" today.
 

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Originally posted by hammeredklavier:
"But in moments where avant-garde techniques are crucially indispensable for conveying extreme horror, the techniques must be used."

Nonsense. Ennio Morricone wrote one of the most famous, best horror film scores to one of the greatest (and goriest) horror films of all time, John Carpenter's The Thing and used no avant-garde techniques at all. The whole score was very subtle and nuanced, and should be a lesson to all that came after. As no surprise to anyone, it wasn't.
I won't argue "avant-garde music is aesthetically similar to horror film soundtracks" as an objective fact. I just disagree with some people's view that it's "something ugly, discordant music no one listens to",
I'm saying it's very much an integral part of modern culture, without some of us realizing.
 

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Ok, I understand. Just keep in mind, though, that the term "avant-garde" will apply to certain music only at a certain point in time, maybe longer, maybe not. It depends. For example, Boulez's 2nd Piano Sonata of 1945 was labeled AG back in its day, but it is not considered AG anymore. Same with Lutoslawski. What he was doing in the 1970s and 1980s was pioneering in the AG, but now it is mainstream and everyone does it and accepts it as "normal". I didn't watch The Beatles video you posted there, but I would assume its probably similar. I doubt much of anything from 50 or 60 years ago is going to be considered AG today. People would probably still call John Cage AG, and I might as well, I don't know (I don't call his conceptual pieces "music", I call them just "art"). Like I said, it depends. Just keep all of that in mind when throwing this term around.
 

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Ironic since I don't find any modern horror movies the least bit scary, let alone interesting. I'll take Psycho, The Birds, The Haunting (1963), Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? and a whole slew of other "primitive stuff" over the predictable, boring, computer-generated "cartoons" today.
Psycho was, IMO, the only foray that Hitchcock took into the Horror genre, although The Birds came close. Hitchcock was considered the master of Suspense.

It's possible that the films you mention resonate better because Suspense is a more nuanced genre than Horror.
 

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I won't argue "avant-garde music is aesthetically similar to horror film soundtracks" as an objective fact. I just disagree with some people's view that it's "something ugly, discordant music no one listens to",
ARE THE BEATLES AVANT-GARDE?
I'm saying it's very much an integral part of modern culture, without some of us realizing.
Allow me to interject, "Well, here we go again."

The Beatles
dabbled in a lot of subgenres, and avant-gardism is one of them.

One of the problems is that I could ask a dozen people what Avant-Garde means, and get a dozen answers. And the meaning(s) of the phrase has probably evolved over the years, just as the Pop/Rock subgenres of Prog and Metal have.
 

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Allow me to interject, "Well, here we go again."

The Beatles
dabbled in a lot of subgenres, and avant-gardism is one of them.

One of the problems is that I could ask a dozen people what Avant-Garde means, and get a dozen answers. And the meaning(s) of the phrase has probably evolved over the years, just as the Pop/Rock subgenres of Prog and Metal have.
If you're a conservative in art, AG wants to target the opposite of what, stereotypically, you and the old guard has wanted in art. It's a subtle focus, but it's not new (just maybe more accented since the early 1900s).
 

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JW to retire his film writing and concentrate on concert music...
Here's a pertinent quote from the article..
“A purist may say that music represented in film is not absolute music. Well, that may be true,” says Williams. “But some of the greatest music ever written has been narrative. Certainly in opera. Film offers that opportunity — not often but occasionally it does. And in a rewarding way musically. Occasionally we get lucky and we find one.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...b97ac2-f2f2-11ec-ac16-8fbf7194cd78_story.html
I wonder if you have an example of such a successful film (a lucky find above)?
 

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I wonder if you have an example of such a successful film (a lucky find above)?
You'd have to ask the man himself. My guesss is that he means he was able in some films, to exercise and think in longer and more concert/theatre orientated phrasing, development and techniques (multi themes, motifs etc.), because of the vast amount of music required for certain projects (Star Wars, Raiders et al).
He is also given much licence in movies thanks to his genius and with Spielberg in particular, that trust gives him some considerable musical latitude. The famous story about the last 15 mins or so of E.T. show how much respect Spielberg has for JW. No matter how much he tried, JW could not conduct his lengthy and brilliant cue to get it in synch with parts of the action on screen. Spielberg told him to conduct it the way he wanted the music to go and the film was subsequently re-edited to the track.
 

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Discussion Starter · #592 ·
I wonder if you have an example of such a successful film (a lucky find above)?
The animated films of the Disney. Watch Lion King, The Little Mermaid and Beatiful and the Beast, for example.

During the so called "Disney Renaissance", the Disney was trying to relaunch his products with some new ideas, including the music as an important part of the products. The music awards at the Accademy Awards in the nineties were dominated by the Disney.
 
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