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Modern scoring has a different aesthetic and technical paradigm to the JW/Goldsmith/Hermann tradition which was much more traditionally based when it comes to composing. There is also directorial and commercial pressure involved that has been totally influenced by the digital means of creation and musical tropes that have developed in a more sustained fashion since the early 90's (ish) to accompany moods on screen. These ubiquitous tropes allied to the ease of creating music have all but democratised the job of film scoring to the point where in theory (but certainly not in practice), composers who are technically ignorant of the older school of composing can potentially break into the industry and do very well.

I personally don't mind this so much because imv, the film experience can and does benefit from a vastly expanded pallette of sound and approach even if that sometimes means a blander, stereotypical kind of music (Marvel,DC et al in particular) which I'm not much of a fan of. Occassionally there are real gems of approach and effect in scoring from quirky and unique individuals that contribute greatly to a film as a result of a different musical upbringing.
I think you're actually really reaching here to make a point.

Film scoring has evolved every decade that film scores became a relevant part of films, and I very much doubt that newer "composers who are technically ignorant of the older school of composing" to be a valid point.

You sound like Grandpas of every decade objecting to the crappy music "that teens listen to today. Back in MY day we had REAL music, music you could DANCE to, with snappy and nifty tunes you could whistle."

I could drag out "ubiquitous tropes" from every decade of film. For example, whenever there'd be an onscreen train . . . yeah, you see? You can already hear 'train' music.

That said, the musical pallette for film scores has always been including 'exotic' and diverse new styles and genres of music as it developed chronologically.
 

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It is not about disagreeing with an aesthetic so much as it’s about writing poorly crafted music. Saying you like or dislike train music accompanying a train is one thing, and pointing out actual compositional errors within the music itself is another.
 

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I think you're actually really reaching here to make a point.

Film scoring has evolved every decade that film scores became a relevant part of films, and I very much doubt that newer "composers who are technically ignorant of the older school of composing" to be a valid point.

You sound like Grandpas of every decade objecting to the crappy music "that teens listen to today. Back in MY day we had REAL music, music you could DANCE to, with snappy and nifty tunes you could whistle."

I could drag out "ubiquitous tropes" from every decade of film. For example, whenever there'd be an onscreen train . . . yeah, you see? You can already hear 'train' music.

That said, the musical pallette for film scores has always been including 'exotic' and diverse new styles and genres of music as it developed chronologically.
I sound like granpa?? really. here's a quote from my post....

I personally don't mind this so much because imv, the film experience can and does benefit from a vastly expanded pallette of sound and approach even if that sometimes means a blander, stereotypical kind of music (Marvel,DC et al in particular) which I'm not much of a fan of. Occassionally there are real gems of approach and effect in scoring from quirky and unique individuals that contribute greatly to a film as a result of a different musical upbringing.
You are ignoring or don't realise the impact that the DAW has had on creativity and the business model, I could go into but don't have the time, nor do I feel inclined. I will say though that the last thing I am is a musical snob given that I spent a lot of my career at the media coalface whilst also helping colleagues who could not read music. So as you can imagine, I resent and utterly refute what you have implied.
 

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Adam, you might be amused or perhaps even more annoyed by this....
zimmer strings
344 players!!!!! and struth, imagine the potential musical damage that many violas could do.... :)

Here's 2 screenshots of his string section recorded in London..

What was it you where saying about the bass again.....;)
Dear lord, heaven help us. Yes, I just found this clip on line a few minutes ago, posted below. He has 28 celli. This idiocy only magnifies his orchestrational incompetency that’s already there. I’ll have to go into it more on Monday. I’ll choose this steaming pile of hot garbage of a cue to analyze at Forsters request.

 

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Discussion Starter · #625 ·
The melodies are boring and unimaginative and easy to write. Almost completely diatonic.
If it was easy to write the melodies of Hans Zimmer then everyone would be able to steal him the job and the market value of one of his film scores wouldn't be 2 million dollars (it's a simple market rule). Don't you want 2 million dollars? What are you waiting?

You wrote that you are bored by film scores, while I'm bored by people who say that a melody is bad because it's diatonic and so on (things like that).
Someone here wrote that analyzing too much about what's happening in a piece can inhibit enjoyment, and I think this is the case.

Although your technical analysis might be interesting in universitary lessons about music theory, it does not offer so much from an artistic perspective.
The users of a car don't need to know the details about how the car has been engineered and built. They simply need to know if it works well or not.
The same can be said for users of music: the important thing for them is that the music works, and this is the artistic perspective of music.


So, now I'll try to offer an analysis from an artistic perspective.

In this video you can see a scene of the Lion King with the right score. This piece of the suite is called "Kings of the Past".



In this video you can see the same scene but with a wrong score.



Now, you can try to do a third experiment: to use the "Art of Fugue" as a score for the same scene. Let me know what are the results of your experiment.

My conclusion is simple: the right score is perfect for the scene. Brilliant! That's why Hans Zimmer can ask 2 millions for one film score.

People who think to be better than Hans Zimmer because they write non-diatonic melodies (or things like that) will never steal the job to him, because they don't understand the artistic perspective of the music.

What other can I say? I still love this diatonic melody, as well as many other people that get chills with it (just read the comments in youtube).
 

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Discussion Starter · #626 ·
It is not about disagreeing with an aesthetic so much as it’s about writing poorly crafted music. Saying you like or dislike train music accompanying a train is one thing, and pointing out actual compositional errors within the music itself is another.
You wrote "You can start by subtracting those annoying, cliche, overused, swishing suspended cymbals. My goodness. Enough already. It's melodramatic and is like fingernails down a chalkboard. Every two seconds. Swish, swish, swish. Then a BIGGER one. Now REALLY big! ".

So, are you saying that the use of cymbals is an OBJECTIVE error? So many words to say that you don't like something.
 

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If it was easy to write the melodies of Hans Zimmer then everyone would be able to steal him the job and the market value of one of his film scores wouldn't be 2 million dollars (it's a simple market rule). Don't you want 2 million dollars? What are you waiting?

You wrote that you are bored by film scores, while I'm bored by people who say that a melody is bad because it's diatonic and so on (things like that).
Someone here wrote that analyzing too much about what's happening in a piece can inhibit enjoyment, and I think this is the case.

Although your technical analysis might be interesting in universitary lessons about music theory, it does not offer so much from an artistic perspective.
The users of a car don't need to know the details about how the car has been engineered and built. They simply need to know if it works well or not.
The same can be said for users of music: the important thing for them is that the music works, and this is the artistic perspective of music.


So, now I'll try to offer an analysis from an artistic perspective.

In this video you can see a scene of the Lion King with the right score. This piece of the suite is called "Kings of the Past".



In this video you can see the same scene but with a wrong score.



Now, you can try to do a third experiment: to use the "Art of Fugue" as a score for the same scene. Let me know what are the results of your experiment.

My conclusion is simple: the right score is perfect for the scene. Brilliant! That's why Hans Zimmer can ask 2 millions for one film score.

People who think to be better than Hans Zimmer because they write non-diatonic melodies (or things like that) will never steal the job to him, because they don't understand the artistic perspective of the music.

What other can I say? I still love this diatonic melody, as well as many other people that get chills with it (just read the comments in youtube).
no, that’s not how it works. Even JW has admitted so. In his preface to Fred karlins book On the Track, Williams said the number one question he is asked is how to break into film scoring. His reply involved several things but mostly he stressed the importance of pure luck, out of your control. other a list composers have admitted the same thing. So you’re wrong.

Further, hz is a brand and a name that people pay for now, which is a ridiculous concept created by this idiotic industry and has helped create this mess.

however, if hz died tomorrow are you saying all of Hollywood would shut down? Would film scores just suddenly cease? Nope. They would just pay one of the other thousands of carbon copies out there 2 million dollars to write something just like him and nobody would know the difference. We have computers to see to that. They are going to pay someone 2 million dollars.

your arguments are nothing but baseless ad hoc. as if it’s ok that the ends justify the means. Or like saying we can conclude hitler had good ideas because he had millions of supporters so he couldn’t have been that wrong.

I don’t need to make a million dollars to prove how easy it is to write better Melodie’s or better music than hz. I just need to show you my music which I have plenty of examples of. More importantly, since my argument was that he does not belong mentioned with Jw and goldsmith, I just need to show their music.

strange that peoples arguments bore you but not trite melodic content.
 

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You wrote "You can start by subtracting those annoying, cliche, overused, swishing suspended cymbals. My goodness. Enough already. It's melodramatic and is like fingernails down a chalkboard. Every two seconds. Swish, swish, swish. Then a BIGGER one. Now REALLY big! ".

So, are you saying that the use of cymbals is an OBJECTIVE error? So many words to say that you don't like something.
Yes, cliches and over writing are objective errors.
 

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no, that’s not how it works. Even JW has admitted so. In his preface to Fred karlins book On the Track, Williams said the number one question he is asked is how to break into film scoring. His reply involved several things but mostly he stressed the importance of pure luck, out of your control. other a list composers have admitted the same thing. So you’re wrong.

Further, hz is a brand and a name that people pay for now, which is a ridiculous concept created by this idiotic industry and has helped create this mess.

however, if hz died tomorrow are you saying all of Hollywood would shut down? Would film scores just suddenly cease? Nope. They would just pay one of the other thousands of carbon copies out there 2 million dollars to write something just like him and nobody would know the difference. We have computers to see to that. They are going to pay someone 2 million dollars.

your arguments are nothing but baseless ad hoc. as if it’s ok that the ends justify the means. Or like saying we can conclude hitler had good ideas because he had millions of supporters so he couldn’t have been that wrong.

I don’t need to make a million dollars to prove how easy it is to write better Melodie’s or better music than hz. I just need to show you my music which I have plenty of examples of. More importantly, since my argument was that he does not belong mentioned with Jw and goldsmith, I just need to show their music.

strange that peoples arguments bore you but not trite melodic content.
I agree about trite content. I know what it is (but it's difficult to describe in all its varieties). Maybe this is what the argument is really about.
Can music used as specifically as it is in films, be anything but predictable and trite? And should it be more 'important' as art? I don't think so. It has to fit the type of film, and it's one package, so apart from the film what is it?
 

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I think you're actually really reaching here to make a point.

Film scoring has evolved every decade that film scores became a relevant part of films, and I very much doubt that newer "composers who are technically ignorant of the older school of composing" to be a valid point.

You sound like Grandpas of every decade objecting to the crappy music "that teens listen to today. Back in MY day we had REAL music, music you could DANCE to, with snappy and nifty tunes you could whistle."

I could drag out "ubiquitous tropes" from every decade of film. For example, whenever there'd be an onscreen train . . . yeah, you see? You can already hear 'train' music.

That said, the musical pallette for film scores has always been including 'exotic' and diverse new styles and genres of music as it developed chronologically.
"You sound like Grandpas of every decade objecting to the crappy music "that teens listen to today."

Interesting. I wonder if you think the grandpas were right or wrong?
I think it's fascinating that an older generation saw rockabilly and rock-and-roll as a dumbing down of the intelligence in the popular music of the 30s and 40s. Likewise, disco and punk were a dumbing down of rock music. And that trend continued for decades. This is how society saw it (there's so many factors).
 

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I agree about trite content. I know what it is (but it's difficult to describe in all its varieties). Maybe this is what the argument is really about.
Can music used as specifically as it is in films, be anything but predictable and trite? And should it be more 'important' as art? I don't think so. It has to fit the type of film, and it's one package, so apart from the film what is it?
A lot of film music fits the type of film and also works as a standalone work. In fact, some film music works so well standalone that if you didn’t know the movie it came from, you wouldn’t be able to tell from the music itself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #635 ·
Thank you for this bouquet of pejoratives, but I'm afraid not everything is clear to me. What exactly are "artificial colours / flavours", and how do they differ from normal orchestral colour? How is the melodic material nondescript if most kindergardeners with no musical training could tell you what it communicates?

The subtraction of which instruments would have, in your view, made this track better?
However this version of "This Land" has not been used. It's in the soundtrack album, but not in the film.

The version that has been actually used in the film is this one.

 

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Discussion Starter · #636 · (Edited)
Further, hz is a brand and a name that people pay for now, which is a ridiculous concept created by this idiotic industry and has helped create this mess.

however, if hz died tomorrow are you saying all of Hollywood would shut down? Would film scores just suddenly cease? Nope. They would just pay one of the other thousands of carbon copies out there 2 million dollars to write something just like him and nobody would know the difference. We have computers to see to that. They are going to pay someone 2 million dollars.
Yes, because fortunately Hans Zimmer is not the only skilled composer. John Williams, Alan Menken, Thomas Newman, Howard Shore, James Horner (RIP), Ennio Morricone (RIP), and so on...
The list is long.

The fact that the list is long however doesn't mean that it's easy to find someone with their talent in the general population. The market rule simply says than when the demand is high and the supply is low, the price of the goods becomes very high. No one is so stupid to pay 2 milions for something that everyone is able to do.

as if it’s ok that the ends justify the means. Or like saying we can conclude hitler had good ideas because he had millions of supporters so he couldn’t have been that wrong.
One of the recurring ideas of the violent dictators like Hitler is that what they like is objectively good and that what they don't like must be repressed.
As a liberal, I simply think the opposite: the tastes of people are subjective, everyone has the right to have what he/she likes and no one has the right to use the violence to impose his tastes on other people. The freedom also includes the free market, at least to some extent (the people have the right to buy what they like and the companies have the right to sell to people what they like).

I'm not saying that you are like Hitler, but to say that people who like melodies or arrangements that you don't like are idiots and that the composers who write them shouldn't exist it's a start. Although it's not like killing people, insults are a form of violence and hate.

Unfortunately, violence is a part of human nature and this is why Hitler was promoted. Some attitudes of humans are harmful, but not the attitude of having different melodic preferences than yours.
 

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Now, you can try to do a third experiment: to use the "Art of Fugue" as a score for the same scene. Let me know what are the results of your experiment.

My conclusion is simple: the right score is perfect for the scene. Brilliant! That's why Hans Zimmer can ask 2 millions for one film score.
Whereas the wrong music for a scene is easy to enough to discern. There is no such thing as one single 'right' piece of music for a scene because too many factors, musical and extra-musical come into play. I know that's not exactly what you are saying but it is worth pointing out I feel.
 

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I’ll have to go into it more on Monday. I’ll choose this steaming pile of hot garbage of a cue to analyze at Forsters request.
Hmmm. Rereading my post, I can see there is an ambiguity in it that has misled you. What I said was "What is it that those two did for their movies that current film composers don't do - and with some examples of their failures please."

By which I meant. "What is it that those two (Williams and Goldsmith) did for their movies that current film composers (excluding Zimmer - you've already dismissed him) don't do - and with some examples of their failures please."

You're doing what I've observed here more than once in discussions about modern composers - focusing narrowly on a tiny handful of hugely successful composers and drawing unsupportable conclusions about the state of film composition. See my post at:

.

Maybe you could search out the work of some of those composers and point out what's wrong with it. I'm not interested in a purely musical analysis by the way. I'm interested in an analysis of the "music-with-film" analysis. AaronSF said, "I get bored pretty quickly if clever is all there is." Me, I might get bored if the film is no good. If the film is good, I'll not mind what the music is doing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #639 · (Edited)
Yes, cliches and over writing are objective errors.
You call cliches "errors", while I call them "style", or "school" if you prefer.
The music of a precise time period and of a determined context always has its own cliches.

As a passionate of the classical period, I know for example how much predictable is the music of the time.
Typical symphony of the classical period.

First movement: allegro or presto
Second movement: andante
Third movement: minuet
Fourth movement: allegro or presto

Each movement has its own cliches. The andante typically is not like a slower version of the allegro. No! It has distinctive cliches. It could be harder to distinguish the first movement from the fourth, but I think that there are some cliches that you usually find in the first movement and not in the fourth.

Then there are the individual cliches of each composer.

For what it worths, I could believe that Mozart had an enlightment when writing the Odense symphony, because I can hear that the melody of the first movement sounds different from the usual melodies of Mozart.


However, the musicologists expert of Mozart's music say that the symphony has surely not been written by him. This means that they don't think that the genius is unpredictable.


Note how the second movement of Odense symphony is obsessively repetitive (it's a nice melody, but that movement shouldn't be longer than 3 minutes). Repetitivity is quite usual in the Andante, but we can forgive this thing because classical music is magic. Many people use very high standards to disqualify music they don't like.

"A good composer is unpredictable" ----> "Hans Zimmer is predictable and so he's a bad composer". More people in this and other discussions have explained that composers of film scores often have very little time to write and arrange the suite, but according to you Hans Zimmer should reinvent music every time he composes a new film score.
Even the genius Amadeus was not able to reinvent music every time he composed a new piece (and this is why musicologists are able to say if a piece has been written by him or not), but you expect Hans Zimmer to do it.

For what it worths, I think that the score of Lion King is quite distinctive in general in respect to much film music I've heard, but I have no problem in believing that there are also some cliches. I mean, if you must compose a piece in a short time it's normal that you use already tested musical techniques.
 
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