[Guest]

Whether Otello is black (out of Africa) or blackened (with charcoal or shoe-polish like the Black Peters around the Dutch Santa Claus) already is a matter of interpretation itself, but we agree on the deep effect on his character, which is blackened by sheer envy. In Wagner I just have to laugh at the shallowness of his characters. Perhaps it is this shallowness of character, that has a great appeal on Wagnerians....

I'm interested in the idea of 'Shallowness of character'. In some literary works, (traditional epics, fantasies and formula writing like detective novels) the characters are deliberately meant to be no more than puppets or ciphers or symbols: there can't afford to be any ambiguities, subtleties or uncertainties about them. Even so, those works have a very great appeal and would not necessarily be regarded as shallow in their entirety. Is that what you meant to suggest?

Wagner, did, historically, expand tonality to an extreme, the first true and superbly accomplished use of progressive tonality, an extended music dialogue which avoids cadences, his more than intelligent handling of a high chromaticism. Without the fact of Wagner, later music would not have happened as it did, the 'busting' of common practice tonality, chord function, and high chromaticism are all present and accounted for in Wagner.

I'd like to know more. Can you point to some examples (clips) of what he did with tonality that others before had not done?

 

[PetrB]

I'm interested in the idea of 'Shallowness of character'. In some literary works, (traditional epics, fantasies and formula writing like detective novels) the characters are deliberately meant to be no more than puppets or ciphers or symbols: there can't afford to be any ambiguities, subtleties or uncertainties about them. Even so, those works have a very great appeal and would not necessarily be regarded as shallow in their entirety. Is that what you meant to suggest?

I'd like to know more. Can you point to some examples (clips) of what he did with tonality that others before had not done?

Perhaps 'stretch' would have been the better word. [And too late to revise, should have said 'seed of' the later modern developments. Add please, that I really find the music distasteful, and I am not about to comb through, listen through yet again, sorry.]

The famous opening measures of Tristan, and the several measures of subsequent sequence are cited in just about every theory book, (they are in the Wiki Tristan entry) an expanding voicing of a chord which never resolves, stepping up to another in sequence, never resolving. In fact, essentially, that is all the theoretic premise one needs to know to 'get' what Wagner does.... the ultimate gizmo to delay / avert cadencing
As found in link below,
"Music analysts have labeled the opening chord of the Prelude to Act I of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde the "Tristan Chord." In the opera, the chord's lack of traditional tonal resolution serves to prolong the yearning and longing suffered by the ill-fated lovers.
One of the most famous chords in music history, its resolution changed conventional music analysis forever. Composed as an enharmonically spelled diminished seventh chord, the "Tristan Chord" does not properly function or resolve according to the part-writing rules of the Western art tradition. It was this chord that prompted many later composers to push the tonal idiom to its limits and to abandon tonality altogether for experimentation with 12-tone serialism and the musical avant-garde
Yes... it does / did all that
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/tristan/motive1-3.php
The thing itself:

(Care for this or not -- and I don't -- it is difficult, from a musician's point of view, to not admire how it is done, and how well done it is.)
The Ring cycle, opening in Eb and, after four evenings and sixteen hours only then once 'returning home,' to Eb, is a sort of feat on record

 

[Guest]

The famous opening measures of Tristan, and the several measures of subsequent sequence are cited in just about every theory book, (they are in the Wiki Tristan entry) an expanding voicing of a chord which never resolves, stepping up to another in sequence, never resolving. In fact, essentially, that is all the theoretic premise one needs to know to 'get' what Wagner does.... the ultimate gizmo to delay / avert cadencing

Ah, right, then it's the same thing that bigshot and I briefly clashed over in the thread about opera.

As 'schtick' goes, it's not great is it? It's nothing more than some love guru saying, "Look how long I can go before I give you an orgasm!!" Having just discovered what the fuss is about with Gangnam Style, I can see why delivery up front has as much appeal as delayed gratification.

 

[KenOC]

...an expanding voicing of a chord which never resolves, stepping up to another in sequence, never resolving. In fact, essentially, that is all the theoretic premise one needs to know to 'get' what Wagner does.... the ultimate gizmo to delay / avert cadencing...

The averted cadence is an old trick, though Wagner did it well. Check out the 1st movement of Beethoven's Op. 101 piano sonata for an example.

 

[PetrB]

Similarly, although Beethoven loved Bach and know a lot of his clavier music very well indeed, he didn't speak of Bach's prowess in counterpoint. He called Bach "the father of harmony."

Ah, that is where that horrible old saw came from. Now I know who to blame

 

[Guest]

KenOC Similarly, although Beethoven loved Bach and know a lot of his clavier music very well indeed, he didn't speak of Bach's prowess in counterpoint. He called Bach "the father of harmony."

Ah, that is where that horrible old saw came from. Now I know who to blame

I've said all kinds of silly things after a night down the pub...but no-one's taken me up on it and quoted it in Encyclopaedia Musica!

 

[PetrB]

Ah, right, then it's the same thing that bigshot and I briefly clashed over in the thread about opera.

As 'schtick' goes, it's not great is it? It's nothing more than some love guru saying, "Look how long I can go before I give you an orgasm!!" Having just discovered what the fuss is about with Gangnam Style, I can see why delivery up front has as much appeal as delayed gratification.

Well, I'm rather with you on that if you're not being sarcastic. Then again, much of the Romantic era sensibility and its preoccupations are not my cuppa -- Longing / Unrequited love / Weltschmerz / Schadenfreude / Der Tod.
Cheery lot, those Teutonic Romantics....

Yes, one could almost safely say (depends on the crowd around you at the time of saying) that musically, Wagner was a one-schtick pony.

...and yeah, it was a very big deal at the time.

 

[PetrB]

I've said all kinds of silly things after a night down the pub...but no-one's taken me up on it and quoted it in Encyclopaedia Musica!

So you're copping a plea using a pint or two of Guinness as your evidential defense?

As to Beethoven having said that, think about it. A harmonist would say that about Bach, because that was Beethoven's context, so what he would have best understood of it.

 

[Guest]

So you're copping a plea using a pint or two of Guinness?

Guinness? Guinness?? You insult my taste sir! I demand satisfaction!!

A pint or ten of Pedigree, perhaps

 

[PetrB]

Guinness? Guinness?? You insult my taste sir! I demand satisfaction!!

A pint or ten of Pedigree, perhaps

Being allergic to alcohol (not a euphemism for having fallen and recovered in a 12 step program, but allergic., meaning it is not a matter of discipline or will power that I refrain completely, but a practical matter wherein it averts bodily discomfort or harm...) well explains my complete ignorance of all things alcoholic. -- the down side, of course, is not being able to connect the stuff to silly things I've said. I just have to 'own' those.

With all due apologies, then.

 

[PetrB]

'Tis I that must disagree. 'Strict' counterpoint à la Fux is hardly the only kind. Both Mozart and Beethoven were excellent contrapuntalists, even when they weren't even remotely hinting at the baroque approach. It could be argued (though I won't) that Wagner's weaving of themes and leitmotifs throughout the Ring is also a type of counterpoint.

I thought naming those other composers as exemplar of fine counterpoint demonstrated that I was not thinking of 'Fuxian' counterpoint.

Clever as it might be to toss leitmotifs like ping pong balls bouncing about throughout a lengthy score, those are mostly the motif with an harmonic setting, not a romp of several motifs sounding simultaneously. That is not counterpoint, but variation.

 

[TxllxT]

I'm interested in the idea of 'Shallowness of character'. In some literary works, (traditional epics, fantasies and formula writing like detective novels) the characters are deliberately meant to be no more than puppets or ciphers or symbols: there can't afford to be any ambiguities, subtleties or uncertainties about them. Even so, those works have a very great appeal and would not necessarily be regarded as shallow in their entirety. Is that what you meant to suggest?

In Wagner's music the flow of the Gesamtkunstwerk overflows everything and everyone: no person is able to keep his or her own stand. The grumbling Wotan and all his fellow great gods&goddesses go down into their Götterdämmerung and I feel the music of Wagner urging me to splash myself down into the same melting-pot. But after some lengthy listening I just come out feeling nothing, experiencing nothing... because I have no one, no person in front of me. With Boris Godunov I see and feel this person in front of me, to the very end, and the music of Mussorgsky just sharpens& deepens the characterisations of Boris, the Holy Fool and the Russian people. Wagner's music-flow tries to reach & realise exactly the opposite. Wagner's antisemitism I understand from this totalitarian urge.

 

[mamascarlatti]

In Wagner's music the flow of the Gesamtkunstwerk overflows everything and everyone: no person is able to keep his or her own stand. The grumbling Wotan and all his fellow great gods&goddesses go down into their Götterdämmerung and I feel the music of Wagner urging me to splash myself down into the same melting-pot. But after some lengthy listening I just come out feeling nothing, experiencing nothing... because I have no one, no person in front of me.

I have Brünnhilde . She's a real person. She feels sympathy, defiance, love, betrayal, fear, horror. She's in turn girlish, playful, brave, loving, afraid, pleading, vengeful, dignified.

 

[Ramako]

As to Beethoven having said that, think about it. A harmonist would say that about Bach, because that was Beethoven's context, so what he would have best understood of it.

Well, tbh I think it (harmony) was the most remarkable thing about Bach for his time anyway. However a lot more people have a lot more knowledge about this than me have said otherwise so I must bow. If one compares him to the Renaissance masters of counterpoint the harmonic aspect becomes more important I think, though.

 

[KenOC]

As to Beethoven having said that, think about it. A harmonist would say that about Bach, because that was Beethoven's context, so what he would have best understood of it.

I can't quite buy that. Yes, Beethoven was a solid harmonist, but he was also an aspiring contrapuntalist. Where else but Bach would he find his greatest examples and inspirations? Of all of Bach's attributes, the contrapuntal genius would have been the most appealing. Yet still he called Bach "the father of harmony."

I think there's a deeper understanding here, though I can't clearly define it.

 

[Sid James]

Some of us find the later works of Wagner to be sublimely at the pinnacle of nineteenth century opera. But this is a thread for those who don't like Wagner and the people who love them

For those of you who can't stand Wagner, why is that? Is it because of his politics? Is it because a certain you-know-who liked him a lot and therefore Wagner is poisoned by association? Is it because Wagner is a fungus?

Pray tell.

I'll give it straight:

- I don't much like the 'bigger is better' type aesthetic
- I think his music could have done with a fair bit of editing (I concur with Rossini's famous comments, that Wagner's operas have wonderful moments but dreadful quarters of an hour) - in other words, I find him very long-winded
- His politics definitely does colour my negative assessment of him (so too do some of his fans online who I have been unwise to be entagled/ensnared myself in discussions with - they often exhibit qualities of megalomania and intolerance of diversity of opinion)
- Too highbrow, too much philosophy and pseudo-religious aspects

Positives of Wagner which I admit:
- As a great innovator, very influential on many types of music (from high to low art - from 'serious' composers like Mahler, Schoenberg, Messiaen to composers of musicals and film musics)
- As a major composer of second half of the 19th cnetury
- As one of the great composers of opera

 

[emiellucifuge]

Ive enjoyed reading these well thought-out and honest responses. It is amusing to me that some of the reasons given for disliking Wagner are counted among my reasons for liking him. A few examples below:

Another thing which puts me off, The Ring anyway, is the fantasy theme.

I love this aesthetic he uses where things are completely unrealistic, and everything seems to function within a higher archetypal symbolical sphere. Where people aren't really people but characters, ideas from my own subconscious.

In Wagner's music the flow of the Gesamtkunstwerk overflows everything and everyone: no person is able to keep his or her own stand.

The same as above. The incredible wave of the music which engulfs and encompasses everything. A perfect example of music in the philosophy of the 'Will' of Schopenhauer.

- Too highbrow, too much philosophy and pseudo-religious aspects

Again, see above. Philosophy is something best displayed through art in my opinion. The deeper, more intellectual and philosophical a piece of art is the better. And Wagner isn't lacking!

I was a little startled by Ramako's post. While it was meant as tongue in cheek, I think the bit quoted here is actually quite accurate and serves as a good 'counter point' (hah) to the philosophy behind counterpoint and explains in a rather metaphysical sense the success of romantic homophony.

Wagner said that in Beethoven's music, "All is melody". This means that the whole texture becomes one line; the whole music we hear becomes a single driving force. We as listeners interact with this force, the overall effect being one of great consonance, the resolution of emotional and large-scale dissonance.

On the other hand, I couldn't disagree more with the following:

Clever as it might be to toss leitmotifs like ping pong balls bouncing about throughout a lengthy score

The 'leit-motif' system is more complex than you make it out to be, and Wagner never agreed to any kind of cataloging of his motifs. I think it is the best solution to the problem posed by doing away with musical structure and replacing it with dramatic structure. Further, as he went on and refined his technique these 'motifs' became more and more complex. In Parsifal we finally see that the lines between motifs blur considerably and that many of them are related, yet each is used flexibly throughout the drama providing intricate references both forwards and backwards temporally.

 

[Sid James]

Ive enjoyed reading these well thought-out and honest responses. It is amusing to me that some of the reasons given for disliking Wagner are counted among my reasons for liking him. A few examples below:...

I think that's the most important aspect of many discussions here. Especially ones that become polarised and heated, emotional, etc. The reasons I don't like something might be the reasons someone likes it. I can understand that, or I'm beginning to now. If there's one big thing being on this forum has made me see more clearly (apart from broadening my exposure to music) its this. Its about diversity and how music is a personal thing. There is no 'one size fits all' type robotic conformity. If there was, TC would be a very boring place indeed.

 

[superhorn]

Wagner has divided listeners, fans, critics, and musicologists from the very beginning . There's something about his music that gets some people's goat , not only his Nazi associations . Many people could not stand his music long before the Nazi era .
I've never been one of these misguided souls, fortunately , and even though I don't approve of his anti-semitism in the least , I've never let it get in the way of my admiration for his works .
For some people, his operas are insufferably long and boring . Others fnd the music noisy and bombastic.
Others think the librettos he wrote on his own are terrible (they aren't at all). Some think his plots are ridiculous and the characters too . Not true . More than a few have misunderstood his use of leitmotifs, and mock them for reappearing whenever a character comes on stage , which is not really their function .
Quite a few people find his use of alliteration in the Ring unintenionally comic .
Now we come to the unfortunate hijacking of his works by Hitler. Many people assume that the Ring
glorifies the Teutonic triumph of Germans over Jews and other subhumans . Wrong ! Nothing could be farther form the truth . The Ring in fact is about the way that lust for power and riches corrupts everything and leads to catastrophe .
The final address of Hans Sachs to Walther and the crowd in Die Meistersinger has been misconstrued by many to be about the need for Germans to go out and conquer the world and slaughter Jews ! Again,wrong !
It has to do with the need for a people to preserve its cultural heritage in the face of misfortune and being oppressed by others .
There are no Jewish characters in the Wagner operas, no discussions of Jews or Judaism, and not a single anti-semitic statement by any of them . Wagner's operas are about HUMAN RELATIONSHIPS, not antisemtism .

 

[Sid James]

Wagner has divided listeners, fans, critics, and musicologists from the very beginning . There's something about his music that gets some people's goat , not only his Nazi associations . Many people could not stand his music long before the Nazi era .
I've never been one of these misguided souls, fortunately , and even though I don't approve of his anti-semitism in the least , I've never let it get in the way of my admiration for his works .
...

To be honest, the thing that gets up my goat so to speak is that he's far from being typical of opera. Which kind of explains his 'cult' following. Also, his untouchability, his elevation to a god. There was a recent article here by an Australian musician saying the money they'll be blowing on the Wagner Ring next year in Melbourne could be put to better use. Again, I could do a thread with a link to his opinion, but I won't for fear of being shot down by various people here.

The other thing is that there is the spectre of the Holocaust there. I am very sensitive to those that died in that, one of the most horrible crimes of mass murder known to man. So there are connotations there, like the word Holocaust meaning a burnt offering. I'm sure I don't need to relate to which opera that comes to mind easily with that. Of course, some countries (not only Israel but also East Europe, where horrible atrocities where committed by the Nazis and their collaborators) also put under the carpet not only music by Wagner but other composers promoted by the Nazis, which in their minds was a symbol of subjugation and oppression.

So I am sensitive to this. As for goings on on this forum, I don't forget them. It is, I think up to more level headed Wagnerites like yourself superhorn and emiellucifuge to bring into line those on this forum who are prone to be not as sensitive, and dare I say exhibit similar bigoted and fanatical attitudes to the regime which idolised Wagner and his ideologies.

So I don't think all Wagnerites are like that, but the job to bring them into line is by you, their fellow fans, not people like me. I am not a fan and was put off Wagner by them. When I came to this forum, I was pretty neutral on Wagner. I thought the fascistic attitude to do with him was history. Then I found out that the ghosts of the past live on, online. After being on the rough end of the stick with some of these people, I got rid of all my Wagner cd's earlier in the year. It came to that.

But its the same with any zealots. Their tactics have the opposite effect to what they're hoping to achieve. It puts people off, big time.

& the only reason I'm voicing these things is I think that this thread is the right place to do it. I would not 'troll' a thread on this forum solely about Wagner and his music. Since this thread asks those of us who don't like Wagner why we don't like him, I take it I can extrapolate on my thoughts here as I have done (& hopefully not come to grief with various 'characters' on this forum).