[SanAntone]

I believe that Wagner wrote in a letter or told his wife, but there is a quote that after Parsifal he planned to devote the rest of his life writing symphonies. Or so the story goes ....

 

[Kreisler jr]

Even if this was a serious/honest claim, it still shows a lot that he couldn't be bothered with symphonies for the 40 years before that... And we have absolutely no idea how serious these plans were or how fruitful they might have been, had he lived longer. It's like Beethoven's oratorios and Faust? opera or whatever plans he entertained one time or another.

 

[SanAntone]

Even if this was a serious/honest claim, it still shows a lot that he couldn't be bothered with symphonies for the 40 years before that... And we have absolutely no idea how serious these plans were or how fruitful they might have been, had he lived longer. It's like Beethoven's oratorios and Faust? opera or whatever plans he entertained one time or another.

We have a documented quote of his intentions - which of course you are free to ignore and continue with your baseless speculation. However, I think it could be said that Wagner had brought his operatic aspirations to their apogee with The Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal, and really, there was nowhere else for him to go other than in a completely new direction, i.e. instrumental orchestral music.

 

[hammeredklavier]

1.5 mediocre early ones

which pale so much in comparison to

 

[Oldhoosierdude]

I can take him or leave him. Mostly the latter.

 

[Kreisler jr]

We have a documented quote of his intentions - which of course you are free to ignore and continue with your baseless speculation. However, I think it could be said that Wagner had brought his operatic aspirations to their apogee with The Ring, Tristan, and Parsifal, and really, there was nowhere else for him to go other than in a completely new direction, i.e. instrumental orchestral music.

We also have intentions from Beethoven about oratorios and operas and whatnot and similarly from other composers.
As long a there are no sketches, no specific plans or anything, it's every bit as speculative that Wagner would in fact have written late symphonies. His whole history as a composer speaks strongly against that.
I'd bet quite a bit that Wagner would NEVER have written "abstract" three or four movement symphonies like his 1880s contemporaries. He might have written a bunch of tone poems along the lines of the Siegfried Idyll.

 

[hammeredklavier]

We also have intentions from Beethoven about oratorios and operas and whatnot and similarly from other composers.

Such as?
I still think your point is valid regarding Beethoven, Wagner; since they did whatever they wanted to do as artists in their time. But the argument doesn't apply to the vast multitudes of pre-Romantic composers before them, who covered many genres, but did things their employers or audience wanted them to. For instance, it's overlooked that Haydn wasn't particularly more interested in any particular genre than others; he himself even said he was proud of his late masses (something he never said for the things he is mostly known today for, the symphonies or string quartets).
By the way-, with Die Schöpfung, the fuss seems mostly about the extended symphonic intro, not on any of the individual numbers of the main body. In terms of elegance and simplicity, in my subjective view, none of them is as memorable as the Gratias agimus tibi from the Theresienmesse.

 

[TwoFlutesOneTrumpet]

We also have intentions from Beethoven about oratorios and operas and whatnot and similarly from other composers.

So glad Beethoven did not waste his time on oratorios or more operas. In fact, I wish he hadn't spent so much of his time on Missa Solemnis and instead given us another symphony. He did put aside the 9th while working on the Missa.

 

[Dick Johnson]

So glad Beethoven did not waste his time on oratorios or more operas. In fact, I wish he hadn't spent so much of his time on Missa Solemnis and instead given us another symphony. He did put aside the 9th while working on the Missa.

I LOVE the Missa Solemnis and would rank it ahead of several of his symphonies. Agree with you on Fidelio. As a fan of both Beethoven and opera, it is surprising that such a great genius did not have a natural ability for opera composition - a limitation that he himself seemed to regret.

 

[TwoFlutesOneTrumpet]

I LOVE the Missa Solemnis and would rank it ahead of several of his symphonies. Agree with you on Fidelio. As a fan of both Beethoven and opera, it is surprising that such a great genius did not have a natural ability for opera composition - a limitation that he himself seemed to regret.

Not me. Most religious music bores me to death. I love Bach's keyboard music but his masses and cantatas are not for me. I love Beethoven's symphonies, piano sonatas, string quartets, concertos and a lot of other chamber music but Missa Solemnis bores me to death. Same with Brahms - love a lot of his music but The German Requiem is not my cup of tea.