#troll alert

Maybe we could have a civil discussion here?

 

I think the results of this poll are going to be pretty obvious....

 

some TC members will disagree..

 

From a recent discussion in one of the other boards, you'd think Fidelio was Beethoven's 9th.

 

I agree.. lol!

 

Can Beethoven be compared to Mozart in writing for stage?

Well of course he can be compared. Everything can be compared to anything. The question is where he would rank in the comparison. And for me, his performance would be abismal. Beethoven, the great master, can't hold a candle to Mozart in the operatic world. True, I have heard Fidelio only twice, and both were Abbado's version. But when I heard Mozart's greatest operas for the first time, I immediately realized I was in the presence of masterpieces, especially Die Zauberflote and Figaro for me. The music in Fidelio is uneven and the libretto itselfleaves a lot to be desired. Not even close.

 

I just wrote at great length to you on this subject, do you really think the answer should be to start another poll? Don't you think that it would have been polite to have given a reply. Incidentally, how often have you seen "Fidelio"?

 

Beethoven is great, but his only opera is not one of his best achievements. It was quite boring for me, though the music was beautiful. With Mozart, I had no hit and miss. Any Mozart opera blew me away, even his first creations in this field.
The two, are may be the greatest musicians that ever lived, but their involvement in opera is disproportionate.

 

I've got to be the most ill-equipped 'Beethoven Guy' here.

 

Well this is gnomic:lol:. Ill-equipped in what sense?

 

I begin to wonder whether I'm speaking a foreign language. In my long post on "Fidelio" I made it quite plain that this opera should not be compared with the Mozart operas. I was in fact defending Beethoven against being described as "so-so". I really cannot be bothered to keep this up as I think I did a pretty good job and nobody has bothered to answer in any sensible way. I find it quite amusing as we had another poll not long ago "What are your 5 favourite operas ?"This was my answer:
L'Elisir d'Amore...Donizetti.
Il Barbiere di Saviglia...Rossini.
Le Nozze di Figaro...Mozart.
Un Ballo In Maschera...Verdi.
Otello...Verdi.
"Fidelio" didn't come into it. So where does that leave things ? Oh, by the way I've actually seen them all more than once.

 

I was in fact defending Beethoven against being described as "so-so".

In the opera genre, as compared to Mozart, he was "so-so"'. And I believe he himself knew it, even if you don't.

 

I vote Mozart.

 

I would rather watch Mozart's Da Ponte operas back-to-back without bathroom breaks allowed than to watch the first act of Fidelio, because to have your bladder almost explode is better than to be forced to listen to such atrocity. Vote went to Mozart. :tiphat:

 

As has been noted here, Mozart and Beethoven are (along with Bach) the greatest composers who ever lived. But in the opera genre, it is basically comparing an absolute master with an amateur. Beethoven himself once referred to his Fidelio as a "shipwreck"'

I am nowhere near considering it a shipwreck and I think he was too hard on himself. That is one reason he was so great - he virtually willed himself, often with great difficulty, to produce many masterpieces in many genres, opera excluded.

I've heard Figaro, Don G, and Flute at various times referred to as "the greatest opera of all"..........may I ask if Fidelio is ever considered in that vein?

 

I can't see any purpose of this thread. The question has already been answered in the big opera poll of last year that TC members prefer the specified operas by Mozart to Fidelio. What's the point doing the same thing all over again under a slightly different guise when the conclusion is hardly likely to change?

 

I abstained from this vote as I have never seen Fidelio. However the few youtubes of Fidelio that I've seen left me quite impressed. Contrast this with some of Mozart's great operas, namely Idomoneo and La Clemenza di Tito, both which I have also never seen, left me with mixed views after viewing some of their clips. To be sure I'd still very much like to see them both, but I would have to say I'm a little bit more anxious to see my First Fidelio than my first Clemenza di Tito. So its certainly possible to compare them, but maybe a singspiel to an Opera Seria is a little bit like comparing apples to oranges. However its virtually impossible to compare the 3 complete masterpieces of Mozart that I've seen to one that I havn't, but of the operas I have yet to see, Die Entführung aus dem Serail leaves me the most imipressed of all. So if the question were boiled down to who was the best opera composer the answer would most likely be Mozart.

 

This poll closes on the same day my milk expires.

 

No comparison. Apples and oranges, but as far as operas go, Fidelio is the greatest opera ever! That is my opinion of course. Also, 10 days is not much for a poll that is not scientifically conducted. You should leave it open indefinitely. You would have seen more votes for Fidelio then.

 

I don't think leaving the poll open would've made a huge difference in the results. I'm sure there would've been more votes for Fidelio, more votes would've gone towards both choices, but the difference between them would still have been pretty large just because of how it's set up. And there's nothing scientific about the way any of the polls on tc are conducted.

 

I tend to think that 10 days is sufficient for a person to make a decision. My general view on these polls is to put them on the board, wait a few days, post about the results and move on to something else.

 

I'm wouldn't have voted, because I don't think it makes much sense to ask, in essence, "Which is more dramatically effective, an opera by an inexperienced opera composer, or an opera by an experienced opera composer?" It's pretty obvious to me that, simply as stage works, any one of Mozart's "big" operas is superior to Beethoven's FIDELIO -- and that Beethoven was much less concerned with what would "work" theatrically than with making moral points about freedom vs. tyranny, etc. Surely FIDELIO is superb by any purely musical standards, but if opera is theatre then I think you have to take into account that FIDELIO is dramaturgically rather unwieldy and more of a challenge to direct than, say, LE NOZZE DI FIGARO. But make no mistake, I love FIDELIO and Beethoven is probably my favorite composer who didn't regularly write operas.

 

Dramatically, Fidelio is a mess, but its music is great from start to finish.

 

Well, I think it requires a very strong director. It's not one of those operas that will more or less direct itself, so to speak.

 

If we must rank things, it's safe to say that Mozart's operas are greater than Jommelli's or Paisiello's. I find it silly and annoying to compare them with those of Beethoven, or Weber, or Wagner, or Rossini, etc., etc.

 

Post deleted....

 

No question that Mozart had forgotten more about writing operas than Beethoven ever knew. Similarly, Bach was a vastly more apt at writing choral music. However, Beethoven did have great genius and so Fidelio and the Missa Solemnis remain monumental works in spite of the composer's limitations in the genre.