Oh, wow! I live for fortepiano!

My favorites are:

the complete Beethoven keyboard sonatas with Ronald Brautigam

Mozart Keyboard Sonatas with Kristian Bezuidenhout

Mozart complete keyboard concertos with Jos van Immerseel

At first, listening was quite an adjustment from the prettified sounds of the modern Steinway Grand.
But adjust I did and now I will only listen to Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven keyboard works on fortepiano.

This is the instrument these composers wrote for and with reduced period orchestra and proper pitch, this is now my preferred way to listen to this great music.

 

Oh, wow! I live for fortepiano!

My favorites are:

the complete Beethoven keyboard sonatas with Ronald Brautigam

Mozart Keyboard Sonatas with Kristian Bezuidenhout

Mozart complete keyboard concertos with Jos van Immerseel

At first listening was quite an adjustment from the prettified sounds of the modern Steinway Grand.
But adjust I did and now I will only listen to Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven keyboard works on fortepiano.

This is the instrument these composers wrote for and with reduced period orchestra and proper pitch, this is now my preferred way to listen to this great music.

hp, I was hoping you might jump in here because I had seen your positive remarks on the fortepiano at various junctures. Thanks for the recommendations. I need to explore Bezuidenhout's cycle, which I've read very good things about. Concerning your recommendation of Immerseel: I had planned to order that very box set, but it's out of print and the various Amazon sellers have out-of-range prices (in the $200 range). So I'm taking a bit of a risk and am beginning to order some of Ronald Brautigam's Mozart concertos. The first volume in the cycle (which pairs #9 and #12) got one really negative review (by David Hurwitz -- who can be very mean-spirited and doesn't seem to like period performances in general), but the subsequent volumes have gotten some excellent reviews (but not from Hurwitz). I have two volumes on order (#24/#25 and #20/#27). I've previewed some of these on Spotify, and I have had very good experience with BIS's sound quality. Have you heard any from Brautigam's Mozart concerto cycle? Thanks again for the recommendations.

 

Ha! Ha! You are right! I am a fortepiano fanatic!!

I would use "FORTEPIANO" as my rear vanity license plate on my car except there's too many letters and the inmates at Florida State Penitentiary might object to making it.

You are certainly welcome!!!

 

(1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano?
(2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a positive way-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in a new way?
(3) What recordings exemplify the instrument at its best?

I am not a musician, so the categories of modern instruments and historical instruments have not existed for me (although I do know that the fortepiano is the forerunner of the modern piano, of course). For me, it is just another choice: Mozart on fortepiano or piano, Bach on lute or guitar, Beethoven on historical or modern orchestra... I have no negative preconceptions about ancient versus modern instruments. It's a different sound and I like sounds. I like to have versions of the same piece played on different instruments, either historical or modern, or even transcriptions.

 

Sir Thomas Beecham, upon hearing the fortepiano: "A great improvement over the harpsichord. It sounds like just a single skeleton."

 

Thomas Beecham died in 1961. Over the last 50 years, they've made significant improvements in renovations of older instruments and in creating new instruments on the basis of older models -- not to mention improved performance methods and approaches to doing recordings. Ken, can we keep it positive? (See the OP). Thanks.

 

Since this topic is "In Praise of the Fortepiano", for those of you who don't like the fortepiano, and simply come here to provoke those of us who do like it, perhaps you should post on a different thread.

Just a general comment. Not directed at anyone in particular.

 

Folks have the right to negative comments about the fortepiano; I see no reason to use a different thread.

Having said the above, I've always been a big fan of the fortepiano. Two of my favorite fortepiano recordings are performed by Walter Riemer who recorded the Goldberg Variations and Art of Fugue.

As always, I do want to emphasize that the interpretation is more important than the instrument used.

 

Can someone explain to me whether there's something in Beethoven's music, or Chopin's music, or Brahms's music, or Schumann's music, which makes the fortepiano a better instrument.

The striking thing to me about some fortepianos (not French ones) is that the bass is less resonant than your average Steinway. In fact, everything sustains less than a normal metal framed piano.

Are there effects which Beethoven, Schumann, Chopin or Brahms intended which you just can't do with a Steinway, because the effects rely on a rapid decay?

 

Can someone explain to me whether there's something in Beethoven's music, or Chopin's music, or Brahms's music, or Schumann's music, which makes the fortepiano a better instrument.

The striking thing to me about some fortepianos (not French ones) is that the bass is less resonant than your average Steinway. In fact, everything sustains less than a normal metal framed piano.

Are there effects which Beethoven, Schumann, Chopin or Brahms intended which you just can't do with a Steinway, because the effects rely on a rapid decay?

I suppose that a more rapid decay could enhance clarity and detail.

 

Brahms, Chopin and Schumann wrote for piano, not fortepiano; admittedly nothing like a Steinway Grand, but more advanced than what Beethoven and Mozart were familiar with.

There are some delightful solo Chopin recordings employing pianos Chopin could have used.

 

Mandryka: following Beethoven's pedal markings for the 1st movement of the "Moonlight" sonata is problematic on a modern piano.
Here's a link to Wikipedia for a quick explanation. I'm sure you could check out YouTube and find this sonata performed on a modern piano and fortepiano for comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_No._14_(Beethoven)

 

Yes. The modern piano smears a lot in Beethoven and Mozart, much like solo Bach played on piano, and not on the more desirable (in my opinion) harpsichord.

 

Yes. The modern piano smears a lot, much like solo Bach played on piano, and not on the more desirable (in my opinion) harpsichord.

This is where we agree. For me, even worse is a swimming acoustic where you can't even hear one clear note. Unfortunately, our recording engineers often give us the bathtub/airplane hangar effect; those folks need to be fired (or a firing squad).

 

I prefer van Immerseel's performances of the complete Mozart keyboard concertos over Malcolm Bilson's for one thing, because the former is better recorded. One can hardly hear Bilson's instrument. Most likely Bilson was playing "within", that is, surrounded by the orchestra whereas Immerseel was performing the modern way, in front of the orchestra.

Also, Bilson goes a bit nuts with ornamentation making me distracted. This is especially sinful in the slow movements where Mozart's beautiful lines can stand alone. Bilson does Mozart no favors by "helping" him with ornamentation.
To his credit, Immerseel is smart enough to know when to get out of the way and let Mozart's music stand on its own.

I don't know why performers believe they are doing any service to the listener by heavily ornamenting Mozart on recordings.
This is fine for live performance, but for a recording to be played repeatedly, it just proves to be distracting.

So ornament freely "live"; sparingly for recordings.

 

I prefer van Immerseel's performances of the complete Mozart keyboard concertos over Malcolm Bilson's...

I also prefer Immerseel's Mozart concertos to Bilson's. Another Immerseel recording I like a lot is the set of the Beethoven violin sonatas with Midori Seiler on the fiddle. And I'll give a strong mention to the Diabelli Variations played by Andreas Staier. I was very doubtful before listening to it!

 

So my questions:

(1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano?
(2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a positive way-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in a new way?

I think this only qualifies as half-praise, but it still is praise, right?

1. I don't generally like the fortepiano. BUT . . .
2. Having said that, I've been pleasantly surprised by Melvyn Tan's recording of the Beethoven concertos.
3. I don't know if I've heard the music in a new way; it's been more of, "Son of a gun, that guy can make a fortepiano sound good."

Okay. Back to the comments with full-on praise.

 

Manx, Thanks. Actually your comments are exactly the sort of measured comments that I expected and, in some ways, hoped for. I figured that there are a relatively small number of full-on enthusiasts, but there are others at various junctures along the spectrum. In phrasing the opening post as I did, I mainly wanted to avoid unfettered bashing and crude caricatures. I want and appreciate honest reservations.

I haven't heard Melvyn Tan's recordings of the Beethoven, but have read some good things about them. And so it's a helpful confirmation for me.

I myself have found my own appreciation of the fortepiano has grown slowly, only after hearing a variety of recordings and hearing the best of those repeatedly. Also, for me, the fortepiano in the right hands and with the right recording engineers offers helpful alternatives of familiar works. I had heard some recordings, especially some of the pioneering ones, that didn't appeal to me. While I have enjoyed many of John Eliot Gardiner's performances of a variety of works (from Monteverdi to Holst), his Mozart concertos with Bilson did not appeal to me for the most part. In retrospect, I think that the choices about how they were recorded was a major factor. Bilson's fortepiano sounds too weak against the rest of the orchestra. I see that hp has made more detailed comments above about that performance and spells out the specifics of the problem.

Ronald Brautigam has discussed his conviction of the need for newly-made fortepianos vs. older restored versions. New instruments are beginning to appear more often in recordings, and it will be interesting to see if they begin to shift people's opinions. But I think the biggest factors will be a variety of performers using them and continued improvement in the engineering. One of the reasons that I led off with the mention of the new Melnikov / Faust / Queyras performance of Beethoven's piano trios was its superb sound engineering and Melnikov's quite fresh style and sound.

The evolution of the acceptance of other forms of period practice and authentic instruments has been quite gradual. Some of it has been the audience, some of it has been the performers themselves (in some case, requiring the emergence of a whole new generation of performers who were trained as period specialists). It will be interesting to see developments.

 

What is true is that often modern pianists don't play for clarity of each note, and often fortepianists do. But, listen. If a pianist knows how to drive a Steinway, they can play with just as much clarity if they choose to, at least in music with moderate tempos. One example would be Arrau's digital op 110/i, the one from his final Beethoven set.

I conclude that any lack of clarity is an interprative choice, a decision about texture, not a limitation of the instrument. A choice you may not care for, but that's irrelevant.

 

There is a difference brought about by the actual instruments, because modern concert pianos are cross strung - they're not as polyphonically clear, even just a single chord played isn't as polyphonically clear as with a fortepiano.

I've read this in liner notes and I've experienced it while listening to fortepiano music.

Basically, around the year 1900, piano makers started to sacrifice clarity to "improve" the sound. Actually, even earlier than that with many makers. I remember reading that Liszt still preferred straight strung pianos in a time when most piano makers had moved to cross strung ones.

 

Yes, Alypius, the fortepiano has come a long way.

When it first came out in the early 1990's on Erato, I bought the complete Mozart Keyboard Sonatas played on fortepiano by Alexeï Lubimov. The various fortepianos played on the recent Kristian Bezuidenhout set are a sight for sore ears in comparison.
Much better!

 

Hp, Have you heard Alexei Lubimov's recent performances of Debussy on a period piano? In this case, it's a piano that dates from Debussy's time, not a fortepiano but it does sound quite different from modern Steinways. It received considerable critical acclaim and a number of awards. Since it was recorded by ECM, the sound quality is remarkable:

I think we're going to see many more of such efforts -- and it will be liable to raise eyebrows and perhaps cause real controversy from those accustomed to modern instruments.

 

Love the fortepiano in all its variety. I've got a goodly collection at home - I'll look for the favorites and report back (it will be nice to have a reason to dig them all out and hear them again.)

First order of business is to praise the work done by Jorg Demus on fortepiano (every bit as essential as his more famous recordings on modern piano. His album of Schubert lieder accompanying Elly Ameling on fortepiano was a revelation when I first heard it and is still a delight.

and another vote here for Melven Tan's Beethoven. His disc of the Op.3 sonatas in particular is essential listening, imo.

 

Simon NZ's heads-up for Melvyn Tan seconded !

 

This will be for you, Alypius (link to first part of the documentary, features Melvyn Tan) :

 

TalkingH, Thanks so much for that link! It's an incredibly well done documentary on Beethoven's personal fortepiano. All the comments on the strings and hammers, the differences between an English fortepiano vs. a Viennese conception of it. It's also got great insights into the whole process of instrument restoration. The instrument maker is very articulate about the process and the history. It's must-viewing for those interested in the instrument.

 

I like Brautigam's Beethoven. And from way back in time, I've been listening to Anthony Newman, who has done all the Mozart Sonatas, and Beethoven Concertos; I recommend those.


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[/URL]

 

Beethoven's Piano Sonatas are best played, in my humble opinion, on well maintained pre-Kimball Boesendorfers, if one does not have access to a Pleyel.

 

Brautigam is a master with the fortepiano.

I have several of his albums of Beethoven's piano works on the fortepiano. I also have his complete Mozart piano sonatas on fortepiano. And I also have two albums from his recordings of Haydn's solo keyboard works on fortepiano. I love them all.

 

Gramophone Magazine has recently posted its nominees for its best records of 2014 in various categories. One has caught my eye - or rather, ear. It's a performance of a pair of Beethoven's Piano Trios #6, op. 70, and #7, op. 97 ("Archduke"), with Isabelle Faust on violin, Jean-Guihen Queyras on cello and Alexander Melnikov on fortepiano (Harmonia mundi, 2014). While Faust and Melnikov have generally recorded with modern instruments, here both have switched over to period instruments.

The record has received quite dazzling reviews. Here's a typical one:

Note his emphasis on the fortepiano as a "gypsy dulcimer". Melnikov plays here on a restored 1826 Graff fortepiano. I've listened to this on spotify as well as clips on Harmonia mundi's website. The sound is extraordinary and the music itself has a freshness that I've not heard. (And I much admire the old Beaux Arts Trio performance of these). So it's now at the top of my wishlist.

A few years ago, it's a recording that I likely would have avoided. While I have been a fan of original instruments and historically informed performances for nearly 40 years, I have been rather slow to embrace performances with fortepiano. It has been often berated as sounding tinny, too much like a "toy piano." Yet it was the instrument that Haydn and Mozart and even Beethoven wrote for (though, I gather, that in Beethoven's case, instrument makers were making rapid strides even during his lifetime so that the sound of the best instruments was changing even as he was composing his masterpieces). Well, I'm now sold on it.

Please note the title: "In praise." It's ok to give critical reactions. But I'm interested in people's positive responses to the instrument, or their shift to the positive in their response to the instrument. So my questions:

(1) What have been your evolving experiences with listening to the fortepiano?
(2) What recordings have changed how you heard the instrument in a positive way-and, as a consequence, how you hear the music in a new way?
(3) What recordings exemplify the instrument at its best?

I would love a recording such as this, but my only concern is that I don't really know how well these three play period instruments. On modern instruments, they are wonderful. I have recordings from each of them that are great. But I don't know how they work switching instruments. Still, it is intriguing. I currently have the Archduke performed by the Kempff Trio on BIS that is my favorite.

 

Mike, I had exactly the same reservation that you expressed. I have Melnikov's performance of Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues and admire them greatly. I have several of Faust's performances, including her Bach solo sonatas & partitas, and they are well done. But in all those cases, it's their performances on modern instruments. I've seen a review that speaks of the success of their "crossover" and I'll post that when I find it again. The only thing I can suggest is to listen to it on spotify where you can listen to it in its entirety. Of course, spotify's sound is (as always) compressed. A better reflection is listening to the clips on Harmonia mundi's website; while excerpts, you can get a good sense of the texture of the CD sound.

Thanks for the comments on Brautigam's recordings. As I noted over on the "Current Listening" thread, my order of 2 CDs of Brautigam's Mozart piano concertos (20 & 27 and 24 & 25) just arrived on my doorstep this morning and so I've just begun listening to them. I'll review them more fully later, but I'm enjoying what I'm hearing.

 

One area of the repertoire that I have not really heard much of or read much about is the efforts to perform Beethoven's Piano Concertos on fortepiano. Two have caught my eye:

Arthur Schoonderwoerd & Christofori, Beethoven: Piano Concertos nos. 4 & 5 (Alpha, 2005). This is one volume of a three volume set, and I think it has also been boxed up. I gather he conducted from the piano.

Steven Lubin / Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood, Beethoven: Piano Concertos, 3 Sonatas (3 CDs) (Decca, 2006)

Has anyone heard these? Recommend these? Other instances of Beethoven's concertos on pianoforte?

 

Someone may correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Levin/Gardiner recordings of the Beethoven concertos are also on the pianoforte.

I have the mp3s around somewhere, but lately have preferred the Sudbin/Vanska recordings on BIS.

I initially thought that the Brautigam recordings on BIS were also fortepiano, but he actually uses a modern piano and attempts to produce the sound of a fortepiano - not quite the same. And not that good of recordings, anyways. Fairly forgettable - sad, because I like so much else of what Brautigam has done.

 

Did anyone mention Schoonderwoerd yet? He's recorded at least Mozart, Beethoven, and Chopin on a fortepiano.

Here's an example of his Chopin:

I've long been kind of tired of Chopin but this is lovely.

edit: ah, he was mentioned in connection with Beethoven piano concertos.

 

Just arrived today:

Ronald Brautigam / Michael Alexander Willems / Die Kölner Akademie
Mozart: Piano Concertos nos. 18 in B flat majro & 22 in E flat major (BIS, 2014)

This is the third volume of their cycle that I purchased, the other two (nos. 24 & 25 and nos. 20 & 27) arriving early last week. I'm in the middle of a first listen. Again magnificent playing, remarkable sound balance between soloist and orchestra, and simply extraordinary sound quality in the recording. This Mozart cycle is proving to be all I had hoped for.

Grammophone gave this one of its "Editor's Choice" awards. Excerpts from the review:

"In a letter to his daughter Nannerl, Leopold Mozart expressed his pleasure at the interplay of the various instruments after hearing Wolfgang perform the B flat Concerto, K456. I experienced comparable delight listening to this beautifully recorded performance from Ronald Brautigam and the responsive Cologne period band. In a Mozartian opera reimagined in instrumental terms, fortepiano, wind and strings conspire and banter with captivating grace and legerdemain.
Likewise using a modern copy of an Anton Walter fortepiano, Brautigam favours rather fleeter tempi, and a more direct style of phrasing than Robert Levin on his fine L'Oiseau Lyre recording with Christopher Hogwood... In the first movement, with its suggestion of a march for toy soldiers, Levin is more reflective, Brautigam more playfully extrovert, stressing continuity of line above rhythmic and tonal nuance. I prefer Brautigam's more flowing manner in the G minor Andante, where Levin's minute inflections can sound over-exquisite. The period woodwind, led by the virginal solo flute, are especially delectable in the serenading G major variation. As to the 'hunting' finale, you'd go far to hear a performance of such darting wit and panache, or one that exudes such a sense of delighted collusion between woodwind - each one an operatic character in itself - and the fortepiano's sweet, silvery treble.
In the more opulently scored K482 ... the performance is scarcely less enjoyable than that of K456, not least in the C minor Andante, which at Brautigam's unusually mobile tempo is just as touching, and (in the confrontational second variation) more dramatic, than in more gravely paced readings. Brautigam generates an exhilarating forward sweep in the regal opening movement ... For me the easily flowing pace and delicate touches of embellishment, predictably less lavish than Levin's, mesh perfectly with the animated naturalness of the whole performance."-Richard Wigmore (Gramophone Magazine)

 

Thanks! I haven't heard this. I rank Brautigam very highly. Neither concerto is among my favorite Mozart concertos. If he records #21 and #23 I might go for it!

I already have Bilson/Gardiner and van Immerseel in complete fortepiano sets, so I'm not exactly impoverished here.

Just when I thought my financial situation was in order.... :lol:

 

I think it was mentioned earlier, but some of Mozart's concertos have been recorded by Arthur Schoonderwoerd. The performances, by a tinkly fortepiano and VERY small ensemble, are interesting, but probably not to every taste! One reviewer calls them "Talibanish"!

Five concertos so far that I know of -- 5, 18, 19, 20, and 21.

 

I think it was mentioned earlier, but some of Mozart's concertos have been recorded by Arthur Schoonderwoerd. The performances, by a tinkly fortepiano and VERY small ensemble, are interesting, but probably not to every taste! One reviewer calls them "Talabanish"!

Five concertos so far that I know of -- 5, 18, 19, 20, and 21.

What does that mean, "talibanish"? Something to do with Islam?

 

This is really just another period instruments thread. Unless someone can point out a significant work written for fortepiano AFTER the invention of the modern piano. Or find me someone that prefers to play ALL works on fortepiano simply because they love the sound.

 

Ah, now this raises a question that's been bugging me:

The general public didn't stop playing their old instruments just because Beethoven or whoever now owned the new technology. Even among the more well-to-do families for whom these items were not just home entertainment but a status symbol it must have been quite some time before what we'd recognise as a modern piano was more common than not, and among the less well off longer still.

So if the audience for the sheet music of these and the next generation(s) of composers were for a long time the owners what what we are here calling fortepianos, isn't playing practically anything within its range from even the mid ninteenth century on these instruments a historically accurate option, at least from the point of view of a transitional period in audience keyboard ownership?