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Let's talk Parsifal..................

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77K views 481 replies 58 participants last post by  starthrower  
#1 · (Edited)
Wagner's last opera.

Is it his masterpiece?

What are your thoughts/feelings about this work?

And it's meanings.

:tiphat:

I find it hypnotic and mysterious.
 
#3 ·
It's my personal favorite, and the culmination of everything Wagner strived towards in his career (I hear bits and pieces of Parsifal in many of his works, especially Tristan & Isolde).

I'll admit that I did not appreciate it at first, but I've grown to love everything I complained about. Yes, it's VERY long, but the slow emotional build-up and catharsis excuses this in my opinion.
 
#4 ·
The BESTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTt Wanger opera ever.

It is revolutionary because it merges a ritual with opera and goes beyond a mere staging. It's like entering nirvana every single time I hear it.

I think that the opera isn't all that long (compared to Morton Feldman) and people who get bored by it is to be expected.

It's not about sword and dagger fights. It's about magic and power and forging a righteous path and the dynamics of kingship. All heavy themes.
 
#6 ·
Agreed. Let's put it this way. I would not like to confront Klingsor myself.

Also did you guys know about Hesse's novel alluding to the same legend?


Interestingly enough, the Klingsor in Hesse's novella reflects on the same themes.
 
#9 ·
Yes, agreed. Wagner subverts the traditional expectations of weaponry. Parsifal is not about tension or war. It's about a journey to inner peace and a higher order of learning.
 
#15 ·
I was not normally a Wagnerian opera lover. It didn't come easy to me. There were too many things that got in the way of my enjoyment of his spectacular music. Things like unpleasant screechy singing and unappealing sounds of a heldentenor type voice that competed too heavily with the divine music. Getting around it was a piece of work for me so that I could more fully enjoy Wagner's stunning music without the sideline annoyances. I succeeded but it wasn't a simple process.
Then along came Parsifal (my last and final attempt at delving into the master's works). And voila!
Why I kept it for last I will never know. I think it had been drummed into my head that it would be the toughest one for me to handle and that it was overlong. Pish tosh! It had all the ingredients I needed to be able to enjoy it sans screaming sopranos, no heldentenors, fantastic chorale music, and even a religious theme which I always enjoy (can you say Dialogues des Carmelites or Suor Angelica?) despite being completely non-religious. But the Vorspiel grabbed the hell out of me and wouldn't let go.
And now my head will be spinning today with those opening bars swirling non-stop around my brain.
 
#16 ·
I had listened to it many years ago, couldn't grasp it and put it aside.

Years later picked it up again and liked it.

Kept on listening and then loved it.:)
 
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#20 ·
I would like to get the complete Parsifal with Callas for historical interest. Not sure how it would go but excited!
 
#25 ·
I heard Parsifal all the way through and it was totally transfixing.

I need to listen to another version from the Sinopoli Bayreuth production I viewed.
 
#27 ·
I have been always telling myself to read up about Parsifal seriously, but never had time for that. Apparently this summer will be a bit free of school works, and I hope I will spend more time on good books about this masterpiece.

OK...Now let's talk something within the text and the music itself. So my (first) question is, we all know that Kundry laughed at Jesus at his Crucifixion, but Who or What actually cursed her?

Let's refer to this clip:


1) At 28:25, she says "In darkest hour I feel His eyes turn on me, and his gaze rests upon me". This phrase is accompanied by that heavenly Holy Grail leimotif. An then "...the accursed laughter assails me once again..."

2) However, at 34:50, after Parsifal presses her: "Who dared to wound him (Amfortas) with the holy weapon?", she replies furiously " He, he ! He who once punished my laughter: His curse, ha, gives me strength."


I am a bit puzzled here: from 1) I get the feeling that it was not Jesus who cursed her, but it was her guilt! Yet, from 2), she bluntly states that it was "he" who punished her. So , is it because her own perceptions about what is going on with her fate too complex, or am I misunderstanding anything here? Is there any chance that "he" may refer to Klingsor, who well understands that her guilt and shame are her weakness, and uses that to manipulate her for his vice?
 
#29 · (Edited)
In the context, it's pretty clear that she's referring to Klingsor, who seized the spear and used it on Amfortas while the latter was getting it on with Kundry. It's hideously amusing that, the Spear being a symbol of male sexuality (among other things), Amfortas ends up f***ing himself. You can bet that Wagner was conscious of the irony.

How Klingsor gained control of Kundry in order to use her against the knights of the Grail - well, that goes to the secret heart of the tale. If you view Klingsor as the dark underside of Titurel , who (with his son and executor Amfortas) mistakenly believed that being entrusted with the Grail and Spear - symbols of the feminine and the masculine elements in the human personality - entitled him to control and use them, you will see that his domination and use of the Grail, and Klingsor's domination of Kundry, are one and the same. The deepest psychological meaning of this fantastic allegory has precisely to do with the subjugation of the feminine (spirit or life force) by the masculine (ego or will), the destruction of each by the other which this causes, and the eventual healing of the self through the renunciation by the ego of its own dominance, leading to the liberation of the feminine and its reintegration with the masculine: the reunion of the Grail and Spear.
 
#36 ·
Isn't Kundry the mother of Parsifal? Or is that implied, and not explicitly stated? If Kundry is Parsifal's mother, her death would make sense as Parsifal has taken control of his own destiny. Her plans for him have been discarded.

Also, thank you Woodduck, I was hesitant to bring up the sexual nature of Amortas' wound. I don't know how to bring it up without sounding uncouth.
 
#37 · (Edited)
The identity of Parsifal's mother is mentioned in act one after he shoots swan with arrow and is scolded by Gurnemanz, when asked about his parents Parsifal says his mother's name was Herzeleide (heart's sorrow)

Kundry nearby hears this and mentions that after the "pure fool" left home his mother died of grief causing Parsifal to grow angry at Kundry.......
 
#38 · (Edited)
Herzeleide, Parsifal's mother, is the "third person of the female trinity"- the mother, the seductress, and the slave - which constitute the immature male's view of woman. In the narrative, Kundry isn't Herzeleide, but she can approach him as a reincarnation of his mother, knowing that his unresoved feelings toward the mother he thoughtlessly left behind weeping for him were exactly his point of vulnerability. Here is the complex meaning of sexual seduction in this story concentrated into one intense and frightening moment of decision: will Parsifal yield to his regressive, infantile mother-attachment and cripple his ability to grow into a functioning adult, as Amfortas' did, or will he, remembering Amfortas' hopeless agony, see that that way lies his own destruction, renew and validate his choice to leave his mother and his childhood behind, and embark upon the unknowable and arduous path into manhood?

I think Wagner's ability to merge Parsifal's infantile guilt and mother-attachment into his nascent sexuality, and to make Kundry a figure possessing the feminine power and guile to play on both aspects of an immature man's nature at once in order to keep him from growing up - and to express this with virtually clinical precision in music that's both beautiful and disturbing - is something truly astounding.
 
#40 ·
What is the consensus on Syberberg's Paraifal movie? I only saw bits of it on YouTube, but I really want to see the whole thing. It reminds me of a Teutonic Jodorowsky movie.
I've never seen the Syberberg film. Knowing that's it's very strange in some ways has made me not over-eager to see it. Things like showing Parsifal as both a man and a woman... What does that have to do with Wagner? I get the feeling that Parsifal inspires more sheer kookiness in directors than any other work of Wagner, including the Ring. As far as I'm concerned, Wagner's symbolism is simple and precisely thought-out, and needs no help from anyone. But I may try to see the Syberberg some day. I gather the Kundry is very good. If you see it give us a report!
 
#41 · (Edited)
Another thought about Parsifal's relationship to his mother Herzeleide which just now occurs to me is that Wagner's presentation of the boy's abandonment of her and his feelings of guilt are part of the trick of inversion the composer plays upon our moral perspective. Parsifal's desertion of his mother is presented as an example of his mindlessness and callousness, as is his shooting of the innocent swan in the precincts of the Grail, as if the guilt he is made to feel were deserved. When he first appears in Act 1 with bow in hand he is chastised by the outraged Grail knights, who are presented as images of righteousness. But Wagner is playing sleight of hand with our conventional sense of right and wrong. Subsequent events lead us to realize that Titurel's apparently holy order is perverted by a basic error - while Parsifal, the apparent fool, must reaffirm in the arms of Kundry the wisdom of leaving his clinging mother behind. Yet an even more startling realization is that even the shooting of the swan, however mindless an act, and however peripheral it might seem to the story, is the right and necessary thing for Parsifal to do. The swan, snow-white in its purity, dwelling in the unruffled waters of a lake - symbol of the unconscious - represents innocent nature, as Gurnemanz tries to impress on Parsifal. But at the very center of this whole allegory of the soul's quest is the crucial necessity of leaving innocent unconsciousness behind: the "innocent fool" must lose his innocence, and innocence cannot be lost except foolishly. Killing the swan is thus akin to abandoning the mother, who would keep Parsifal an unknowing child, in another form; both acts represent the sin that must be committed, the felix culpa, the discovery of the knowledge of good and evil, the defiant "no" which falls from the lips of the child who has heretofore lived in the state of ignorance and innocence and looked to the mother for everything. Leaving his mother is no more than what every child must do, and killing the swan is a further step in the series of steps toward autonomy the growing soul must take. Guilt is a part of the price of autonomy, but it is a price that must be paid and will be worth paying when it is dispelled by the adult's consciousness of its necessity and its ultimate unimportance on the journey to maturity.

"Good" knights, confident in their wisdom and piety? "Bad" boy Parsifal, breaking his bow out of guilt? Look again! Titurel's garden of Eden turns into Klingsor's poisoned flowers right before our eyes; Parsifal - resisting the serpent in the garden and, in another Wagnerian inversion, refusing the fruit which is offered him - sets out across the desert to found a new Eden free from Adam's illusion of bliss.

Nietzsche, condemning Wagner for apparently prostrating his former extroverted heroism "at the foot of the cross," never comprehended Wagner's own final "transvaluation of values," and his discovery of the hero within.
 
#43 · (Edited)
Woodduck you are on a roll.......one more item to ponder, what made Parsifal leave his mother

Kundry provides this information also, his father was Gamuret a knight killed in battle, his mother had forbidden Parsifal to use a sword fearing that he would meet the same fate as his father. Parsifal saw knights pass through the forest one day and left his home and mother to follow them

Seems the "pure fool's" destiny even as a young man was to follow his fathers example, and unfortunately his mother's name (heart of sorrow) is fullfilled
 
#44 ·
Woodduck you are on a roll.......one more item to ponder, what made Parsifal leave his mother

Kundry provides this information also, his father was Gamuret a knight killed in battle, his mother had forbidden Parsifal to use a sword fearing that he would meet the same fate as his father. Parsifal saw knights pass through the forest one day and left his home and mother to follow them

Seems the "pure fool's" destiny was even as a young man was to follow his fathers example
You're rolling too DA. :)
 
#46 · (Edited)
One more question:
When Parsifal asked who wounded Amfortas with his weapon, she respond that it was he who cursed [her] for [her] laughter. Please excuse me for being dense, but does this mean Klingsor didn't do it? Who cursed Kundry?

I know that Klingsor wounded Amfortas (that's what we are supposed to understand) but the text seems to say something different.
 
#47 ·
Kundry is presumably the biblical Herodias, and cursed by God with immortality for laughing at Christ on his way to Calvary. She would about be 500 years old assuming the story takes place in the Arthurian period.

Kundry is likely attributing Amfortas' wound to God's punishment for succumbing to Kundry's seduction.
 
#48 ·
Oh, so Jesus forgives everybody while he's on the cross, and God cuts in with "Everybody EXCEPT that lady over there"? Wow, God sure is a vindictive SOB. ;)

I do find it strange that God is being blamed for the wound, too. I'm glad I wasn't just misreading the libretto, or got a bad translation.