[Merl]

What do Mahler fans think of the Gielen cycle? I bought a copy because it was on sale cheap at JPC several years ago but I rarely get inspired to listen to it.

I like it a lot and similarly rate Gielen's Beethoven Symphony cycle highly however I, too, rarely reach for it when I want to play Mahler but tbh I rarely reach for any of my cycles and just pick individual Mahler discs so Gielen is not alone. If I'm playing music from my HD then Chailly (both), Gielen, Bertini and Neumann tend to get picked a little more than others. The last Mahler CDs I played were Kubelik (Audite) for the 1st, Honeck for the 4th, Zander for the 9th and Gergiev for the 7th (not cos they are my faves, btw, but they are all very good at least).

 

[starthrower]

I suppose it's a case of having too many recordings at our disposal. I have listened Gielen's Schoenberg/Berg/Webern box more than his Mahler. I was tempted to buy that nice looking 10th Edition of post war composers but I've already got a number of those works so I'll probably take a pass.

 

[mbhaub]

Does anyone know if there is a Mahler tradition that would somehow be based on the way Mahler himself conducted the pieces? Could there somehow be a weighty tradition that Mengelberg, a friend of Mahler, would have established at the Concertgebouw?

Regrettably, there is not. We have performances on record of the 2nd by three conductors who knew and worked with Mahler: Oskar Fried, Bruno Walter, and Otto Klemperer. They are all quite different. Same with the 4th: Walter and Mengelberg couldn't be more un-alike. The Ninth will always be a question and DLVDE, too. Walter had close contract with Mahler as they were being written, Klemperer didn't' and again they take really opposite approaches. Mahler as we all know made zillions of minute detailes in his scores and hoped to give the performers a guide as to how he wanted the music played, but as we know all too well those instructions are either ignored or interpreted a million ways. I do not believe there is a wrong or right way to play Mahler: just be honest and let the music move! It cannot be sanitized, smoothed over or be played tepidly. Bernstein really tromps all over the score markings yet somehow seems to get to the heart of the matter much more than anyone else. Then there's Boulez who does try to follow each and every marking and realize what Mahler indicated. Yet, I find Boulez' recordings quite sterile and devoid of passion - and they're just about the best played ones out there.

 

[Becca]

Regrettably, there is not. We have performances on record of the 2nd by three conductors who knew and worked with Mahler: Oskar Fried, Bruno Walter, and Otto Klemperer. They are all quite different. Same with the 4th: Walter and Mengelberg couldn't be more un-alike. The Ninth will always be a question and DLVDE, too. Walter had close contract with Mahler as they were being written, Klemperer didn't' and again they take really opposite approaches. Mahler as we all know made zillions of minute detailes in his scores and hoped to give the performers a guide as to how he wanted the music played, but as we know all too well those instructions are either ignored or interpreted a million ways. I do not believe there is a wrong or right way to play Mahler: just be honest and let the music move! It cannot be sanitized, smoothed over or be played tepidly. Bernstein really tromps all over the score markings yet somehow seems to get to the heart of the matter much more than anyone else. Then there's Boulez who does try to follow each and every marking and realize what Mahler indicated. Yet, I find Boulez' recordings quite sterile and devoid of passion - and they're just about the best played ones out there.

Don't forget F. Charles Adler who was the chorus master for the premiere of the 8th.

 

[60476]

Regrettably, there is not. We have performances on record of the 2nd by three conductors who knew and worked with Mahler: Oskar Fried, Bruno Walter, and Otto Klemperer. They are all quite different. Same with the 4th: Walter and Mengelberg couldn't be more un-alike. The Ninth will always be a question and DLVDE, too. Walter had close contract with Mahler as they were being written, Klemperer didn't' and again they take really opposite approaches. Mahler as we all know made zillions of minute detailes in his scores and hoped to give the performers a guide as to how he wanted the music played, but as we know all too well those instructions are either ignored or interpreted a million ways. I do not believe there is a wrong or right way to play Mahler: just be honest and let the music move! It cannot be sanitized, smoothed over or be played tepidly. Bernstein really tromps all over the score markings yet somehow seems to get to the heart of the matter much more than anyone else. Then there's Boulez who does try to follow each and every marking and realize what Mahler indicated. Yet, I find Boulez' recordings quite sterile and devoid of passion - and they're just about the best played ones out there.

For some reason I prefer Bernstein´s versions on video! His live takes on Mahler and Sibelius and many others are outstanding and for some reason they SOUND better than the studio recordings. Like these two, both magnificent:

 

[RobertJTh]

Does anyone know if there is a Mahler tradition that would somehow be based on the way Mahler himself conducted the pieces? Could there somehow be a weighty tradition that Mengelberg, a friend of Mahler, would have established at the Concertgebouw?

My money would be on Mengelberg. He started the Mahler tradition in Amsterdam and performed all of his symphonies in 1920 during the first "Mahler Festival". His annotated scores are a valuable source of information for performance, since some have been used by Mahler himself, and contain his markings.
Mengelberg tried to promote Mahler's music at a time when it was at its most unpopular, not only in Amsterdam but also in New York. Unfortunately we only have recordings of the 4th symphony, the adagietto of the 5th and the Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesellen. But I'm convinced that the famous 1939 4th is as closest to Mahler's style as one can get, closer than Walther's or Klemperer's.

 

[mbhaub]

Don't forget F. Charles Adler who was the chorus master for the premiere of the 8th.

I suppose the best we could do is compare that 8th to the Stokowski - but Stokie never cared what a composer's vision was anyway.

 

[Zarzuela]

My money would be on Mengelberg. He started the Mahler tradition in Amsterdam and performed all of his symphonies in 1920 during the first "Mahler Festival". His annotated scores are a valuable source of information for performance, since some have been used by Mahler himself, and contain his markings.
Mengelberg tried to promote Mahler's music at a time when it was at its most unpopular, not only in Amsterdam but also in New York. Unfortunately we only have recordings of the 4th symphony, the adagietto of the 5th and the Lieder eines Fahrenden Gesellen. But I'm convinced that the famous 1939 4th is as closest to Mahler's style as one can get, closer than Walther's or Klemperer's.

Coincidentally, I just watched the Blu-ray of Chailly's Mahler 6. In a bonus interview, he's asked why his Mahler interpretations had changed so much from his earlier Concertgebouw recordings. He said that before he had felt the weight of tradition and the necessity of following Mengelberg's lead, and he no longer did so. As it happens, I don't respond at all to his earlier, highly praised cycle (Hurwitz ranked it No. 1), but I Iike what I've heard in his Leipzig video recordings.

 

[Neo Romanza]

I received the Gabriel Feltz symphony box set today and it looks quite nice I must say. The 14 CDs are housed in a clamshell case with CD sleeves. Each CD sleeve has the original issued cover art, so this was a nice touch. I'm not sure when I'll even be able to get around to this box set as my backlog is quite vast at this juncture.

 

[Becca]

I suppose the best we could do is compare that 8th to the Stokowski - but Stokie never cared what a composer's vision was anyway.

I was only meaning Adler as a conductor who worked with Mahler. The one recording of his that I am familiar with is the 3rd, no 8th that I know of.

 

[GaryCollins68]

Three favorites: Bernstein (Sony, latest remaster), Bertini, the Boulez "set". Bertini may be my overall favorite and Boulez hits the highest highs. Bernstein is wonderful when he's good (usually). I've listened to many other sets but not been tempted, but I do think that it's really important to get more than one perspective assuming that you're sufficiently attracted to Mahler's music. It really opens up the music for me and prepares me for live concert experiences, My recommendation is: try at least two for a long time and get to know them.

 

[Stad]

Like probably many of us, i first discovered Mahler through his “Titan Symphony” by Raphael Kubelik (on DG). Since then, Mahler’s symphonies come back recurrently in the heart of my listenings. By now, I reached owning over 50 CDs of individual Mahler symphonies, ranging from Bruno Walter to Michael Tilson Thomas (SFS), this, still not counting my complete box set (by Haitink). If I had to write my recommendations based on all these years of listenings, I would say with confidence that there is no fully satisfactory complete set. This, because a conductor like Chailly (for example) who managed to sign references in the spectacular 3rd and 8th symphonies will only be relatively successful in the more intimate ones (much better with Jurowski or Rattle), and even less so with the visionary ones (Barbirolli, Bernstein), and vice versa. Moreover, should there be a complete set which covers all the symphonies in a satisfactory level, it will only be irreproachably clean (Tennstetd), or interestingly surprising (Bertini), but there are chances that none of the symphonies of this set comes to be a reference on individual levels. This being my humble opinion, but still wishing to comply to the very subject of this thread, my recommendation for a complete cycle would surely be Haitink directing the magnificent Concertgebouw Amsterdam (Philips). And to those (like me) for whom a stunning spacious modern sound counts, then Michael Tilson Thomas / San Francisco Symphony (SFS Media).

 

[Becca]

Like probably many, i first discovered Mahler through his “Titan Symphony” by Raphael Kubelik. Since then, Mahler’s symphonies come back recurrently to the center of my listenings. By now, I have come to own over 50 CDs of individual Mahler symphonies, ranging from Bruno Walter to Michael Tilson Thomas (SFS), not counting the complete box set (Haitink). If I had to write recommendations based on my experience of all these years of listenings, I would say with confidence that there is no fully satisfactory complete set. This, because a conductor like Chailly who managed to sign references in the spectacular 3rd and 8th symphonies will only be relatively successful in the more intimate ones (much better with Jurowski or Rattle), and even less so with the visionary ones (Bernstein), and vice versa. More over, should there be a complete set which covers all the symphonies in a satisfactory level, it will only be clean (Tennstetd), or interestingly surprising (Bertini), but there are chances that none of the symphonies of this set comes to be a reference on individual levels. This being said, but still for complying to the very subject of this thread, my humble recommendation for a complete cycle (with stunning sound in bonus) will be Tilson Thomas / San Francisco Symphony (SFS Media); and for those who would get enough with just one complete cycle and nothing else, then i’d surely say Haitink / Concertgebouw (Philips).

There is no such thing as the “Titan Symphony” despite what the marketing departments of some recording companies claim. Mahler did write an earlier work which was described first as 'symphonic poem', then as a 'tone poem in symphonic form'. He applied the 'Titan' name to the second and third performances of that work. Subsequently he made considerable changes to produce what became his first symphony. These changes included removing the Blumine movement and the title.

 

[Neo Romanza]

There is no such thing as the “Titan Symphony” despite what the marketing departments of some recording companies claim. Mahler did write an earlier work which was described first as 'symphonic poem', then as a 'tone poem in symphonic form'. He applied the 'Titan' name to the second and third performances of that work. Subsequently he made considerable changes to produce what became his first symphony. These changes included removing the Blumine movement and the title.

Yes, indeed. Mahler didn’t give titles to any of his symphonies and to bring Bruckner into this, Bruckner didn’t give a subtitle to any of his symphonies except for his 4th Romantisch.

 

[PathfinderCS]

While I have yet to find a 'favorite' cycle of Mahler symphonies, I will give a recommendation for the Tabakov/Sofia cycle. While I won't proclaim it as the best, there is plenty of character and a lot to love from this set.

 

[Sauce]

I'm not a Mahler specialist or anything but i really enjoy listening to his symphonies, i used to dislike the 1st and 8th finding it a chore to get through them but i eventually "got" them after trying a couple of different recordings. Most of my listening is Bernstein's 2 accounts and i sampled some recordings by lots of different conductors.

My first encounter with Mahler was with a boxset called "The People's edition" which apparently was compiled by having people vote on their favourites on each of the 10 symphonies, I think it's a great way to dip your toe in, maybe even the best until you can form an opinion on how you like Mahler or how you like different symphonies to be played.

I'm currently going through Gielen's cycle and enjoying it just listened to the 4th and so far it's all good, great sound too!
I don't have a favourite cycle but performances i like:
1st: Gielen/ Bychkov
2nd: Jurowski
3rd: Bernstein NY/ Gielen is also good
4th: Bernstein NY/ and Gielen again
5th: Karajan and both Bernstein's are good
6th: i think i only ever listened to Bernstein's DG here lol
7th: Bernstein NY
8th: Wit (the recording that made it "click")
9th: Bernstein NY
DLVDE: only listened to Haitink and Klemperer and both are good
Haven't listened to the 10th yet

 

[Neo Romanza]

I'm not a Mahler specialist or anything but i really enjoy listening to his symphonies, i used to dislike the 1st and 8th finding it a chore to get through them but i eventually "got" them after trying a couple of different recordings. Most of my listening is Bernstein's 2 accounts and i sampled some recordings by lots of different conductors.

My first encounter with Mahler was with a boxset called "The People's edition" which apparently was compiled by having people vote on their favourites on each of the 10 symphonies, I think it's a great way to dip your toe in, maybe even the best until you can form an opinion on how you like Mahler or how you like different symphonies to be played.
View attachment 199152

I'm currently going through Gielen's cycle and enjoying it just listened to the 4th and so far it's all good, great sound too!
I don't have a favourite cycle but performances i like:
1st: Gielen/ Bychkov
2nd: Jurowski
3rd: Bernstein NY/ Gielen is also good
4th: Bernstein NY/ and Gielen again
5th: Karajan and both Bernstein's are good
6th: i think i only ever listened to Bernstein's DG here lol
7th: Bernstein NY
8th: Wit (the recording that made it "click")
9th: Bernstein NY
DLVDE: only listened to Haitink and Klemperer and both are good
Haven't listened to the 10th yet

Coincidently, I, too, am going through the Gielen cycle and thoroughly enjoying it. In fact, it might become my favorite modern Mahler cycle if things continue to go this well.

Interesting choices for each symphony, I think I’ll play, too, so here’s mine:

1st - Kubelik/Symphonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks (DG)
2nd - Solti/LSO (Decca)
3rd - Bernstein/New York PO (Columbia/Sony)
4th - Abbado/Wiener Philharmoniker (DG)
5th - Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker (DG)
6th - Tennstedt/LPO (LPO house label)
7th - Rattle/CBSO (EMI/Warner)
8th - Boulez/Staatskapelle Dresden (DG)
9th - Haitink/Concertgebouw (Philips/Decca)
DLvdE - Jurowski/Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin (Pentatone)

Some of these choices may surprise some as I’ve been known to spout off about Mahler on this forum from time to time. I didn’t include the 10th, because 1. I don’t consider it’s completed form by Deryck Cooke to be too interesting, 2. for me, it’s just not a part of Mahler cannon and 3. he never finished it and only left the Adagio, which I do like a lot, but I don’t consider it a part of the official symphony cycle. This may make me an “outsider” to popular opinion or people’s opinion on this forum, but I don’t care. I’ve tried to love the completed 10th for 15 years now and it just has never worked for me as a substantial piece of music that stands on its own.

 

[Sauce]

Coincidently, I, too, am going through the Gielen cycle and thoroughly enjoying it. In fact, it might become my favorite modern Mahler cycle if things continue to go this well.

Interesting choices for each symphony, I think I’ll play, too, so here’s mine:

1st - Kubelik/Symphonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks (DG)
2nd - Solti/LSO (Decca)
3rd - Bernstein/New York PO (Columbia/Sony)
4th - Abbado/Wiener Philharmoniker (DG)
5th - Bernstein/Wiener Philharmoniker (DG)
6th - Tennstedt/LPO (LPO house label)
7th - Rattle/CBSO (EMI/Warner)
8th - Boulez/Staatskapelle Dresden (DG)
9th - Haitink/Concertgebouw (Philips/Decca)
DLvdE - Jurowski/Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Berlin (Pentatone)

Some of these choices may surprise some as I’ve been known to spout off about Mahler on this forum from time to time. I didn’t include the 10th, because 1. I don’t consider it’s completed form by Deryck Cooke to be too interesting, 2. for me, it’s just not a part of Mahler cannon and 3. he never finished it and only left the Adagio, which I do like a lot, but I don’t consider it a part of the official symphony cycle. This may make me an “outsider” to popular opinion or people’s opinion on this forum, but I don’t care. I’ve tried to love the completed 10th for 15 years now and it just has never worked for me as a substantial piece of music that stands on its own.

Of those you picked other than Bernstein's 3rd/5th i only listened to Kubelik's 1st and Abbado's 4th, the Abbado was ok but i found that i don't really like him as a conductor except when he is conducting mendelssohn i also listened to his 7th and 8th iirc and they were nothing special. Kubelik's 1st i get many people rate highly but i personally never really liked it and i'm not sure why, I LOVE Kubelik's Dvorak and i'm looking forward to go through his entire Mahler cycle maybe after i'm done with Gielen.

I'll definetly give your other picks a listen especially the Jurowski, His Mahler 2 made it very hard for me to enjoy other recordings lol.

 

[Neo Romanza]

Of of those you picked other than Bernstein's 3rd/5th i only listened to Kubelik's 1st and Abbado's 4th, the Abbado was ok but i found that i don't really like him as a conductor except when he is conducting mendelssohn i also listened to his 7th and 8th iirc and they were nothing special. Kubelik's 1st i get many people rate highly but i personally never really liked it and i'm not sure why, I LOVE Kubelik's Dvorak and i'm looking forward to go through his entire Mahler cycle maybe after i'm done with Gielen.

I'll definetly give your other picks a listen especially the Jurowski, His Mahler 2 made it very hard for me to enjoy other recordings lol.

That’s okay. I’m one of those Mahler listeners that loves Abbado’s way with the composer. Honestly, these are my picks for tonight for these symphonies --- it could very well change by tomorrow. That’s the beauty of this composer, there’s so many ways to interpret his music and while we may have own preferences, there isn’t a right way to perform his music just as long as the music-making is honest.

 

[Becca]

That’s okay. I’m those Mahler listeners that loves Abbado’s way with the composer. Honestly, these are my picks for tonight for these symphonies --- it could very well change by tomorrow. That’s the beauty of this composer, there’s so many ways to interpret his music and while we may have own preferences, there isn’t a right way to perform his music just as long as the music-making is honest.

There indeed isn't a right way, but I feel that there is a wrong way - however my wrong way might not be anyone else's.