Manuel Ponce - indeterminate

 

That word is used to measure difficulty...

:lol:

 

I disagree on Debussy, Scriabin and Sibelius. Especially the last two.

 

Sort of Barbershop Unisex...:lol:

Well, yes I tend to agree that some of those can be swayed either way, but in general I thought that I was right in my assessment regarding their styles...

 

We seem to be accepting the terms "masculine" and "feminine" as if they had clear and unambiguous meanings.

Do they?

And we also seem to be accepting the idea that these terms are appropriate applied to music, and not just a piece (which is questionable enough) but the entire ouevre of a composer. Yikes!

 

Indeed! I think it would make much more sense if we set about describing composers' outputs as either 'Straight' or 'Gay'...

 

What about:

Wagner - cross-dresser
Beethoven - S&M
Brahms - missionary position
Chopin - voyeur
Liszt - impotent

Etc....

 

Brahms should definitely be a divine virgin!

 

Sibelius as feminine? No way!

Tchaikovsky - Feminine (I'm sorry, it's just true)
Glazunov - Feminine (actually more than Tchaikovsky)
Prokofiev - uncompromisingly Masculine
Shostakovich - overly Masculine, being horribly paranoid that anyone would think otherwise.

Stravinsky comes from another planet, so he has different standards.

 

Grieg - Effeminately masculine

 

mahler - heart attack during an especially long session
sibelius - woman on top

This is a mess! Yikes indeed! The gender specific output of a composer presupposes much of what is deemed to be masculine and feminine. These terms are only vague at best, and can only be defined through performance, and even then, are not static. They are constantly being contested and redefined through cultural mores and social action, and indeed through music. Do you think Mozart's work would have been considered "feminine" during his lifetime. The whole lot of it?!

Masculinities embodied, say in the opening of Mahler's 2nd Symphony, are again contested and redefined as the movement progresses. That is to say, is the opening of "Resurrection" masculine?

Challenge normativity friends!

 

This thread as discourse also defines gender, in this case, in a completely essentialist fashion.

 

Cannibal Corpse - Masculine

Ronan Keating - Feminine

Deicide - Masculine

Barry Manilow - Feminine

Jazz Flute - Ultra masculine

Actually, I'd say the only two kinds of music that can be described like this are metal and chart pop, aimed at and consumed by mostly teenage boys and teenage girls respectively.

 

Come'on , Listening to Beethoven's Fifth.. now if that's not masculine when it comes to music, then what is. Can you ever imagine a female rant like that, musically?

Mozart, has a very charming, non dominant, light style that could be described as feminine.

Mendelssohn could be either way, partly because in his songs without words he exhibits passive non aggressive gentle style, that could be feminine, but his Elijah and Fingal's cave is masculine for sure.

So I would define some of his music as masculine and some of his music feminine, but Beethoven and Liszt? they always sound masculine.

 

When I started to read this, I was thinking "You don't know many women, do you?" But that changed as I read, and by the time I was through I was thinking "You don't know many men, either, do you?"

 

The music of these following composers sounds Masculine or Feminine?

I would like to ask whether memebrs think the music of Saul Dzorelashvili is masculine or feminine. To me, based on the clips on youtube, it sounded rather feminine.

 

Haha! :lol:

Well not this for sure, but some others perhaps...

 

 

Oh dear, I'm actually rather alarmed to learn that Mr. Dzorelashvili is as sexist (or at least almost) as he is Islamophobic. Making broad, essentialist generalizations about huge populations is a dangerous business, sir.

Also, kudos to everyone being funny on this thread. Wish I were better able to retain my sense of humor when vexed.

 

Where did you get from my remarks that I consider one sex superior then the other?


I mean , if you're accusing someone , its always good to back up your words with real facts.

As to Islam, I have stated my position in the other thread, and there is no reason to bring it up here.

 

Ljubica Maric: masculine
Ruth Crawford Seeger: masculine
Galina Ustvolskaya: masculine

 

To Saul (or anyone else): I would be highly interested to hear what you define as masculinity or femininity in music.

I often think that the nature of gender studies causes it to often exaggerate itself, as is the case with the woman who tried to prove how the second movement from Schubert's 8th has homosexual overtones. There are so many blurred distinctions between sexuality, sex, and what we call "gender" that there really isn't the same sort of parallels between them as many would like to think. Effeminacy can often be misinterpreted, especially in an art form as indeterminate as music. Schumann's music, for example, I'd say contains both "masculine" and "feminine" qualities, but the so-called "feminine" qualities of his music are more an invention of the creative processes of his mind rather than a reflection of his true identity - again, whatever that is supposed to mean. The sensitive nature of Schumann's music does not signify any effeminacy on his part. After all, who said sensitivity to sound was an inherently "feminine" quality - to the point that all men who possess this quality should be considered effeminate?

I've heard a few unconvincing theories about Schubert and Chopin's "feminine" qualities, but as I said before theories like this should never be taken with more than a grain of salt since the field of "gender studies" itself is still so vague that all attempts of such analysis can only be made up of mere speculation.

 

To Saul (or anyone else): I would be highly interested to hear what you define as masculinity or femininity in music.

I often think that the nature of gender studies causes it to often exaggerate itself, as is the case with the woman who tried to prove how the second movement from Schubert's 8th had homosexual overtones. There's so many blurred distinctions between sexuality, sex, and what we call "gender" that there really aren't so many parallels as one would like to think. Effeminacy can often be misinterpreted, especially in music. Schumann's music I'd say contains both "masculine" and "feminine" qualities, but the so-called "feminine" qualities of his music are more an invention of the creative processes of his mind than a reflection of his true identity. The sensitivity in Schumann's music does not signify any effeminacy on his part. I've heard theories about Schubert and Chopin's music, but as I said theories like this are never credible since the field of "gender studies" is still vague to the point of being made up of mere speculations.

I would say very simply that in general aggressiveness is associated with the Masculine and Passiveness and gentleness with the feminine. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but as a rule, I believe this to be true. Therefore when I listen to composers' music, I can feel if the music exhibits and portrays aggressiveness or gentleness. Beethoven's music in many ways is an aggressive type of music. Very straightforward, and dominant, tends to be on the serious side of things. In Contrast, Mozart's music is just the opposite, very gentle, airy and charming, not what I would call masculine features.

This generalization in music has nothing to do with sexuality, we are only comparing some characteristic differences between the Masculine and Feminine in the context of music.

Now some composers can portray both characteristics, and I gave examples of Mendelssohn and Sibelius, who can write very aggressive music, like Mendelssohn's Hebrides Overture and Sibelius' Violin Concerto, yet they can also compose music that sounds very feminine, like Songs without Words, and Lyrical Pieces.

 

Saul,

You're right about the Islam thing; I shouldn't have brought it up here.

As for the other matter, I take issue with the idea that any particular musical characteristic can be identified with a particular gender. To say, for instance, that forcefulness or rage in a piece of music make it "masculine" is to say that these are masculine characteristics in general and are therefore incongruous when displayed by women.

I have heard people argue that the prevalence of chamber and "salon" music in the outputs of female composers in the classical and romantic periods is evidence of the existence of a "feminine" style of composition, but these arguments are rather flimsy and two-dimensional in that they fail to take into account the great pressure put upon women to restrict their composition to small forms and "ladylike" expression. For examples, one may look to letters written to Clara Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn by fathers, brothers, and husbands.

Also, when used in music criticism, the terms "masculine" and "feminine" have historically been judgments of worth. Pieces critics have deemed weak or without substance have often been dismissed as "effeminate," a word with definite negative connotations. Forceful and weighty compositions by women (such as Louise Farrenc's symphonies or Elfrida Andree's organ music) have often been lauded as "masculine" by critics who expressed amazement that works of such quality could have been created by women. Calling good music by women masculine is not really a compliment, though it is often intended as one. It is basically saying "this is good; it is like something a man would write."

So, while you may not be intending to use "masculine" and "feminine" as value judgments, your usage of them (associating "feminine" with such other adjectives as "charming," "light," "passive," and "gentle") does express some problematic, if common, attitudes about how men and women are and/or should be.

I realize I've probably gone way beyond what you meant by your characterizations, but I just wanted to explain why I found them troubling. I should have been more civil in my original post. (And also should not have allowed myself to get sucked into arguing non-musical matters on the internet, argh... Oh well.)

 

So, while you may not be intending to use "masculine" and "feminine" as value judgments, your usage of them (associating "feminine" with such other adjectives as "charming," "light," "passive," and "gentle") does express some problematic, if common, attitudes about how men and women are and/or should be.

my favorite composer, alec wilder: feminine

Charming, light, passive (well, maybe), gentle

all these contentions are just ridiculous.

 

Or Martha... but I know you couldn't even fathom the thought.

 

I'll be forever grateful that Martha decided to go against her nature.

 

Nice, but Anna Netrebko La Bellissima is a prettier cookie baker.
I hear that she cooks great breakfasts for that annoying guy Schrott who took her off the market of single women.

 

Never heard of Schrott...

 

"Masculine" or "Feminine"? Interestingly enough, I'm currently reading a book of art criticism entitled, Venus in Exile which explores and deconstructs much of the sexist and misogynist prejudices of Modernism in art. The author explores the manner in which certain characteristics... and even elements (such as color)... were defined as "Feminine"... and thus inherently seen as inferior. My concern with defining a composer as "Masculine" or "Feminine" is that it is something of a value judgment... and a skewed one at that. I would also question the very notion that "Masculine" and "feminine" traits can be easily and clearly defined. Bach is masculine... yet what of this?:

Beethoven is "Masculine?... and yet:

And Mozart is "Feminine"? Is this "Feminine"?

 

Hello,

The Bach piece sounds very serious, thoughtful as if a wise man telling a story, has nothing feminine about it, at least to my ears.

The Beethoven, again the entire mood, the tonality and character portrays masculine features.

The Mozart piece you posted, I would agree that some sections within it do sound masculine, but I would differ and say, that as the piece progresses, it begins to sound feminine, listen to the light woodwinds, you'll see what I mean. Said all this, Mozart in general sounds very feminine the vast majority of the time.

 

I'm surprised that no one mentioned, Franz Schubert whose music and sexuality have been endlessly debated by musicologists in the last 20 years. The hack musicologist, Maynard Solomon have been the harbinger of the issue.

From an GLBTQ article:

Schubert's music bridges the classical and romantic styles and is known for its simplicity and depth of feeling. He often juxtaposes moods within a piece, evoking, for example, both sadness and conviviality. In its supposedly "feminine character," Schubert's music was long regarded as the antithesis of Beethoven's. In the words of the nineteenth-century composer and critic Robert Schumann, who first articulated the opposition, the feminine Schubert "pleads and persuades where the man [Beethoven] commands."

The Romantic compositional style is characterized by a loosening of the harmonic and melodic rules and an increased emphasis onnew harmonies or harmonic
relationships and dissonance(harmonic clashes) and on
heightened emotional
expressiveness and the rise of the piano as a favored
compositional medium.
Schubert chose to compose along a deliberately different path from that outlined by the aggressive and hypermasculine
Beethoven, who was held up as the model and measure for
composers until at least World War I.

Music historians have remarked on a studied, carefully planned
and executed deviance in
Schubert's choice of materials and, especially, harmonies (cadences and moves to keys
related by third rather than the more conventional dominant
tonic or fifth-related motions) in
relation to the creation of formal musical structures of sonata-
allegro form: the traditional form
of a first movement in the
Classical and Romantic periods, beginning with an opening section, the exposition, repeated
once, with two contrasting themes and a modulation or change of key center to the
dominant or fifth; a middle section, the development, that
explores the themes from the first section; and a closing section, the recapitulation, that
restates the opening section, but now altered to end in the tonic.

As a result of these procedures and tendencies, Schubert has often been dismissed as a feminine or weak composer and
this perceived "femininity" is
sometimes related to his alleged homosexuality.

 

The Bach piece sounds very serious, thoughtful as if a wise man telling a story, has nothing feminine about it, at least to my ears.

The Beethoven, again the entire mood, the tonality and character portrays masculine features.

The Mozart piece you posted, I would agree that some sections within it do sound masculine, but I would differ and say, that as the piece progresses, it begins to sound feminine, listen to the light woodwinds, you'll see what I mean. Said all this, Mozart in general sounds very feminine the vast majority of the time.

 

Yes, the analogy might work with SOME of the music of say Beethoven & Chopin (as Kieran points out above), but a lot of music is not categorisable in an easy stereotypical way as this.

For example, I was listening to William Byrd's masses last night. Below is the Gloria from his Mass for Five Voices, a true masterpiece of English Renaissance choral music. How would you categorise this? Sublime, ethereal, static maybe but "masculine" or "feminine" - I think this is impossible :EEK

 

I think the basic premise of this thread is fine, but if people don't like the terms "masculine" and "feminine", could we just talk about "yang" and "yin"? They are largely compatible (at least in my thinking, might not be in yours), and there's nothing sexist about them, is there?

Beethoven - full blown yang; Schubert - yin with a drop of yang; Brahms - yang with a splash of yin; Schumann - balanced; Rimsky-Korsakov - yang with a drop of yin; Mussorgsky - balanced; Tchaikovsky - yin with a splash of yang; Scriabin - full blown yin; Mahler - balanced; Sibelius - balanced; Debussy - full blown yin, Ravel - balanced but leaning on yin, Saint-Saëns - bit more yang than yin, Bruckner - full blown yang with a drop of yin, etc. (You might disagree on these, too - I'm not looking for an argument.)

in which

yang = clarity, structure, forcefulness, "light", answers
yin = obscurity, insinuation, indirectness, "darkness", questions.

 

very interesting.... Yes, I think this is much more useful than the words "masculine" and "feminine" because those two terms tend to cause a lot of confusion.

 

Hi Xaltotun,

These distinctions make more sense. No-one would deny that Rachmaninov's 2nd paino concerto sounds a world different to Chopin's, but how we describe these attributes is the thing.

yang = clarity, structure, forcefulness, "light", answers
yin = obscurity, insinuation, indirectness, "darkness", questions.

This is quite instructive, without withering away into bold stereotypes. Not that the OP was completely wrong-headed, but it was too specific to be successfully nailed down, methinketh..

 

Hi Xaltotun,

These distinctions make more sense. No-one would deny that Rachmaninov's 2nd paino concerto sounds a world different to Chopin's, but how we describe these attributes is the thing.

This is quite instructive, without withering away into bold stereotypes. Not that the OP was completely wrong-headed, but it was too specific to be successfully nailed down, methinketh..

This kind of reminds me of the program 'Yang can Cook'...:lol: