I'm just a consumer too. I've accumulated a little knowledge over the years, but that's probably a dangerous thing.

I'm quite used to saying what I think and feel about music, and if other people don't like what I say, so what? They have a right of reply, and if they scoff at my lack of knowledge, their ignorance will outshine mine.

 

I have a feeling that if all of us here were musically literate this forum wouldn't be as enjoyable as it actually is.

 

The great composers are the ones appreciated by both the musically illiterate and the musicologist together. Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Wagner, etc. The ones who write just for one or the other are usually garbage.

 

This could be compared to any similar art form. Music has never been written only for musicians or 'theorists'. In fact the largest part of the audience surely isn't either of those two?
I'll be open about my view, I think that being able to read the music and understand it in that form adds an extra dimension in terms of understanding something about how a work was achieved. How can it not? But that appreciating the end product doesn't specifically require it.

To that end I can't agree with the above. There are no 'ones only writing for one another' and even if there were the conclusion that it must therefore be 'garbage' is unfounded. If such people found their audience among a certain group with a certain appreciation, this says nothing about the quality of the work. In any case Wagner is really only for a certain audience, so by this measure for everyone else his music must be garbage? Right?

 

There are times when I feel sorry for those who have great technical knowledge.
I have on occasion heard a few conversations when musicians, or at least musically educated individuals spent an inordinate length of time fretting over a minor technical fault in a performance and seemingly missing the fact that the concert was a totally enjoyable experience. I am glad that my uneducated ears perhaps allow me to attain a more pleasurable experience.

On the other side of that coin there are times when listening to a recording I hear a difference in how a piece is being played but cannot grasp exactly what is, or at least cannot describe what the difference is. In that situation I long for the technical knowledge to be able to do so.

@Mandryka makes a very good point - if the music moves you and is presented with spirit and soul does it need to be totally accurate, I think not. If every performance / recording strove to be absolutely faithful to the score where would the art of interpretation be?

Frankly I enjoy listening to music on the level I can and I am at peace with my deficiencies - with the occasional bout of frustration.

 

There are times when I feel sorry for those who have great technical knowledge.
I have on occasion heard a few conversations when musicians, or at least musically educated individuals spent an inordinate length of time fretting over a minor technical fault in a performance and seemingly missing the fact that the concert was a totally enjoyable experience. I am glad that my uneducated ears perhaps allow me to attain a more pleasurable experience.

I've said before how I cant really passively listen to music. My head is going ot be clocking the harmony, themes, form, all that. I cant turn it off. So if I want ot relax, I have to watch a ballgame or Gilligan's Island or something like that. So there's swings and roundabouts to all of this music stuff.

One thing about musicians, though. We are our own worst critics. You have to be that way. Listen, when you have complete strangers comming up and wanting to tell you how great you are, it can really work on your head. You have to stay grounded, and you have to stay hungry. If you listen to all the good stuff, you wont get any better. So if it was the performrs themselves shredding thier performance over mistakes that were made, that's pretty normal. It's also, unfortunately, normal for musicians to rag somebody else's performance, too.

but to that latter bunch, I recall an old joke about guitar players....

Q: How many guitar players does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Five. One to do it, and four more to say "I can do that"

 

Without sounding rude, OT, your sister is talking crap. I'll echo what many have said here and say that you don't need to be musically literate to have an opinion about the music you're listening to. You just need a pair of ears, an unbiased attitude and an opinion. Enjoy what you like. 🎻

 

nothing wrong with being unwashed and illiterate.

I'm not up there playing for the musicians in the house anyway. If it weren't for regular folks who just like to hear music, I'd be out of work.

 

Hi orquesta,
You don't have to be a musician to enjoy music. Period. You don't have to be a novelist to enjoy good fiction. And, you certainly don't need to be a philosopher to read Nietzsche. However, there is a deeper understanding of these Art forms that is only accessible to those who practice these dark Arts which has no bearing to YOUR enjoyment. Can you imagine how paltry the sales of music, novels, and philosophy would be if only practitioners spent their money? Don't worry about what others have to say about your ideas. Music appreciation is a long road and very enjoyable. Your tastes will change with age and exposure. Good listening!
Viajero

 

I'm a musician, but I can't read music too well (I'm actually looking for a teacher in the city I live in to help with my sight-reading), so while I wouldn't say I'm musically illiterate, I would say that it doesn't really matter whether I am or I am not, because listening to music requires nothing but an open-mind (and heart) and your own ears.

 

This might look like me interfering, but really the best way to get your sight reading up the scratch is just by sight-reading as much as you can. You could end up throwing away a fair bit of money on something which is really about personal practise and building a habit.
At school I was a bit lax on sight reading especially for piano because I mainly studied a monophonic instrument, but by the time of post-16 education I spent quite a bit of time playing with a theatre orchestra and it forced me to get better. I also studied a lot of those pocket scores for string quartets which got me properly up to scratch on following four voices. So that was going through following each voice separately, then combinations of two and three etc.

When I first started on the piano (a common second instrument) the tutor did the usual thing of having me learn the parts of each hand separately then combine them. And I still do it this way when learning a work. I notice as well that for me piano sight-reading can deteriorate if I don't keep it up, so it's also a motor skill. Just score reading while following music passivley seems to remain intact.

 

Music—Drastic or Gnostic? on JSTOR

Carolyn Abbate, Music—Drastic or Gnostic?, Critical Inquiry, Vol. 30, No. 3 (Spring 2004), pp. 505-536

www.jstor.org

What it it to listen to classical music?

You could say it's to experience musicians interpret a score - and in that case the more you know the score, the more able you are to see what they're doing, how the sounds they produce relate to the work. That knowing approach, all about knowledge of the work, seems no less valid than any other.

On the other hand there's a more visceral way of listening to classical music. You could see it as the encounter of a human being with instruments and audience - and to listen is to experience that encounter, experience the effect it has on you. Knowledge of the work is secondary at best.

Let me take an example. This morning I was listening to Tom Krause's Winterreise with Gustav Djupsjöbacka. I had just read a review which criticised the pianists interventions in Schubert's score and the singer's inability to produce a rich high register.

But I found the performance really atmospheric and their commitment to the music was palpable and thrilling.

I dont give a flying fairy about the gnostic review, even if the approach valid and the judgements correct. The performance had a drastic effect on me.

 

One doesn´t have to be a construction engineer to enjoy living in one´s home.

One doesn´t have to be a physician to know if one feels good or bad.

Same with music. One doesn´t have to know how to read the score in order to enjoy or not enjoy music and form thoughts about it.

As listeners of music and enjoyers of art we are fundamentally all equal. We have the right to our reactions and opinions. Nobody is better than the other in that.

I hate it when some people look down on other people as "mere amateurs". Then again I hate it just as much when some people dismiss musically educated people as "snob elitists".

Would a brain surgeon call a patient stupid because the patient feels sick but doesn´t not know exactly why? Would a patient say "whaddya know about my brain" to a brain surgeon? No, the doctor appreciates the experience of the individual on how they feel and the patient respects the professional for knowing their job.

That´s how it should be when it comes to music. The educated musicians should appreciate the uneducated listeners of music as completely capable individuals on forming their own insightful and profound thoughts on music. The uneducated listeners should appreciate the profession of the educated musicians enough to admit that there is indeed more to the complex phenomenon of music than just "subjective opinions on what one likes or doesn´t" because creating music at certain level requires skill and knowledge.

The musically uneducated should feel free to express their thoughts without the fear of being ridiculed or considered ignorant. And the musically educated should also feel free to express their thoughts and analysis honestly without being labelled as "arrogant elitists".

As an educated musician myself I really do not like it when people apologise or belittle themselves as listeners of art. But I also refuse to quiet myself down in order to avoid being labelled an elitist.

 

it is interesting to hear the perspective of non musicians, which is one of the things I like about TC.

the thing is, I know that I'm different than the average civilian. I have a compulsion disorder that makes me need to get up in public and play musical instruments. I even play this game where I try and see how much money I can get paid to do this.

So I know that most of the folks out there listening on any given night couldnt carry a tune if it had handles, and that's ok. They aren't on the bandstand. They didnt sign on to play anything tonight, that was me that did all that.

It is hard being a musician in this society, but its downright impossible if you expect the rest of the world to think about music the same way musicians do. Any musician that expects that out of any audience is going to end up dissappointed


so to all the unwashed mob of musical illiterates out there....Cheers!🥂

 

It's fair to say I am a highly educated musician, with formal training though a doctorate, and decades of professional experience performing, composing, and teaching.

Studying music for me is like studying the cosmos: to the genuinely curious and aware mind, new discoveries and observations only reveal the presence of even deeper and more numerous mysteries.

My training in math only got to an undergraduate level (multi-variable calculus). And so while I can learn a lot about the universe and its phenomena, I will therefore never comprehend it in the same deep way as a professional astrophysicist; nonetheless the sense of wonder and love I feel for the cosmos is no less real or meaningful than theirs.

The same applies to music. I have a photographer friend, who was never trained in music in any formal way, but has had a very full lifetime listening to music. Nonetheless I trust his ears and insights into music as much—or indeed not infrequently more—than I trust those of other professional musicians.

The important thing is to listen, and genuinely doing that is something all too few people really do. Alan Alda has often described something I totally agree with: really listening requires being willing to be changed, in some way, whether large or small, by what you hear.

That's all you need.

 

Sadly, to many it's just heavy organ music (i.e. boring)

Then the many you refer to aren't an audience for Bach's Ps and Fs.

The same can be said for anyone who is "missing out" on whatever the appeal is of jazz or pop or folk. I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a "layer", but the direct blood-surging rush of Them's Gloria is as attractive as any piece by Bach - to those who find it attractive.

If you haven't heard that, no problem as long as you enjoyed the music.

Now you say it's 'no problem'? You thought so a post or two ago.

I often feel reluctant to make comments on here, because I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself, which I think I have already done a couple times. Well, that's because I'm illiterate - musically speaking. I can't read it or play it. And so I don't know how to talk about it, except in terms of how it makes me feel. But the same music can get different emotions out of different people to some extent, so speaking with authority on my "feelings" is a no-go.

The OP's issue is a reported often enough, and becomes a frequent point of debate here - the "knowledgeable" listener v the "innocent" listener, but in fact, anyone who becomes a a regular audience for classical music doesn't remain "musically illiterate" for very long, unless they steadfastly refuse to do anything more than respond to "how it makes them feel". Whilst it's blindingly obvious that the professional musician has a technical facility over the individual who can barely play Chopsticks, it's not really a point worth making.

The only musical illiterate is the one who doesn't listen to music.

 

The OP's issue is a reported often enough, and becomes a frequent point of debate here - the "knowledgeable" listener v the "innocent" listener, but in fact, anyone who becomes a a regular audience for classical music doesn't remain "musically illiterate" for very long, unless they steadfastly refuse to do anything more than respond to "how it makes them feel". Whilst it's blindingly obvious that the professional musician has a technical facility over the individual who can barely play Chopsticks, it's not really a point worth making.

The only musical illiterate is the one who doesn't listen to music.

Yes! Everyone capable of listening to music and forming some structures of thought from it are far from being musically illiterate.

People are completely able to live in their own homes and enjoy it even though they are not construction engineers. And it is THEIR HOME, no matter what some engineers say about it.

 

We don't consider learning music very important in schools. It's like telling a preteen, you won't ever need to know higher math or chemistry so don't worry about it.

In my experience, when you ask an adult, they don't think that they've missed much. (But ask them how they know..)

 

We don't consider learning music very important in schools. It's like telling a preteen, you won't ever need to know higher math or chemistry so don't worry about it.

In my experience, when you ask an adult, they don't think that they've missed much. (But ask them how they know..)

We had a piano and voice teacher at our school, but it was only the children of wealthy parents who had lessons. They were almost invariably boarders, whose fees probably helped keep the school limping along. I’ve never asked any adults if they thought they missed something because of not having learned music. But I live in a very philistine society. The image of New Zealand as being all rugby, racing and beer is pretty accurate, though these days it’s gambling rather than racing. I fairly recently learned that real pianos are coming back into fashion. And guess what: anyone who buys one won’t be able to find a piano tuner!

 

You can discern music without being literate in music. I think through time and experience, anyone can learn to appreciate music. I did notice by learning and playing a piece of music, I would pick up certain things I didn't just by listening. Also from writing music, you can appreciate more the choices made by a master composer in given situations.

 

I often feel reluctant to make comments on here, because I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself, which I think I have already done a couple times. Well, that's because I'm illiterate - musically speaking. I can't read it or play it. And so I don't know how to talk about it, except in terms of how it makes me feel. But the same music can get different emotions out of different people to some extent, so speaking with authority on my "feelings" is a no-go.

I love the Sir Thomas Beecham quote:

"A musicologist is a man who can read music but can't hear it." Or another good one, "If I had my way, I would like to make people who like music, listen to it occasionally."

That's one thing I can do well, I think, is hear it. I can't explain why I like something, because I don't know how to.

My sister can read and play music, and she has told me that I can't really appreciate it as much because I'm not a musician like she is. Maybe I have an inferiority complex because I let that bother me. Most illiterate people can speak a language fluently, just not read or write it. And I think I am fluent at listening to music. I have loved listening to music from Machaut to Hertzberg and so much in between. I have so many CDs I can't count and have run out of room for already, and I can be in the mood to plop in a song cycle, a symphony, a cantata, an opera, I seem to love it in all forms. I can't get enough and I still make new discoveries. It's a journey that never ends.

Lately I've taken comfort in listening to Pettersson, whom I've just discovered, because he was one of those dirt poor wretches who made his way into the music world out of sheer will, and Swedes will only now acknowledge him after the fact. Plus his musicianship is appealing, of course.

His song cycle, "Barefoot Songs" has been having a profound effect on me. His childhood and mine I can somewhat relate to, I'll leave it at that.

And I learn a lot from many of yours expertise, so I say thank you.

Don't sweat it, given the eclectic range of music you seem to listen to, you are an ideal music listener imo with open ears and a nicely positioned emotional perspective to offer the forum.

 

I agree and I’m jealous. I wish I could like all sorts of music. Most of us have “holes” in our tastes. But my biggest problem is once get under my headphones I don’t want to come out and face the day.

 

I often feel reluctant to make comments on here, because I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself, which I think I have already done a couple times. Well, that's because I'm illiterate - musically speaking. I can't read it or play it. And so I don't know how to talk about it, except in terms of how it makes me feel. But the same music can get different emotions out of different people to some extent, so speaking with authority on my "feelings" is a no-go.

As another musical illiterate, thank you for writing this.
I share your reluctance in posting here more often.

I love music. But can neither read or play it.

My response is purely emotional/animalistic…

How to put that in to words when it often seems you need a Phd in music to write something sensible here. 😊

Still, lots to learn… and one day I may yet distinguish a B minor from a D major! 😁

 

I often feel reluctant to make comments on here, because I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself, which I think I have already done a couple times. Well, that's because I'm illiterate - musically speaking. I can't read it or play it. And so I don't know how to talk about it, except in terms of how it makes me feel. ...
...That's one thing I can do well, I think, is hear it. I can't explain why I like something, because I don't know how to.

Don't sweat it...people can enjoy great music at all different levels....if it evokes a response in you that's great...
describing its effect can be daunting - but keep in mind some musical "basics" - rhythm, melody, harmony, texture, setting, instrumentation, etc...our responses to music can very often be described in relation to these basic elements...
but it's not necessary to do that...you can enjoy the music without any analysis...

music listening is much like watching sports - people of all different knowledge levels can appreciate sporting events - some just like the excitement, others enjoy analyzing every play, every formation, every call, etc...it's all fine....same with music...

 

" You want to sight read better? sight read something every day. " Nate Miller

It's that simple!
Viajero

P.S. May I also add that throwing in one or two more advanced pieces(above your playing level) to your weekly routine to slowly read through(10-20 minutes) is of enormous help in moving forward. When your head starts hurting . . . it's time to put it down and return to your soup du jour. V.

 

...and sight read to a metronome.

 

We shouldn´t make assumptions or generalisations on individual people.

I didn't think I was making a generalisation, using the word 'few' implying not often - I was merely trying to indicate that on occasion being technically knowledgeable can appear have its draw backs.

And there are musically uneducated people who pay meticulous attention to details.

I accept that is also the case, it is not all black or white what ever side of the situation you find yourself on.

I was merely expressing a point of view based on my experience.

Edit: I do tend to post in a light hearted vain so if that doesn't come over, my bad - I never post intending to cause upset.

 

I didn't think I was making a generalisation, using the word 'few' implying not often - I was merely trying to indicate that on occasion being technically knowledgeable can appear have its draw backs.

I accept that is also the case, it is not all black or white what ever side of the situation you find yourself on.

I was merely expressing a point of view based on my experience.

Actually I didn´t think you were making a generalisation, I just wanted to make a point that came to my mind because of what you wrote and the conversation before it. I was not criticising what you wrote -- what you write is quite accurate in my opinion. Sometimes I suffer greatly from my analytical mind when it comes to music.

@Malx , now that I read my message again it really came across as though I was blaming you for generalisation. I am sorry. One needs to be careful and not just spam one´s own points like I did.

 

'Knowing music - you can talk to other musicians in Words about a work.

While I was a young piano student I discovered that the same note groups and chords/scales/modes I was learning were the ones Mozart and Haydn, and even Beethoven used to compose their memorable works. ... of course, with more sophistication and 'rightness' and power, but the same.

This impressed me. I don't why it was such a revelation (and a unique source of appreciation), but it was. heh

 

Yesterday I saw my ENT for the 3rd time in 5 months. I had left our previous appointment somewhat angry and disappointed with him, as I felt he was tuning me out, after an MRI had shown no major issues. This is a common experience with doctors, being tuned out like I'm dumb as a log, and I was not sure how I was going to convey myself this time.

After the MRI, he had ordered a CT scan though he predicted it would show nothing and said I was wasting time and resources. Then yesterday, when he saw the report, he raised alarms, claimed I had a dangerous sinus condition, that I would require 30 days of strong antibiotics and perhaps surgery or the infection could spread to my brain.

He got angry when I pointed out what a 180 he had done. This was when I knew I finally had his attention and I kept up the pressure, questioning his shift from ambivalence to urgency and how my condition could have changed from nothing to critical in 3 months without feeling any different. He said I was "lucky" I got the CT scan no matter what he had predicted, complained that I wasn't going along with him, and I responded that he hadn't been going along with me. He complained that we were diverging and I said, no sir, we're just beginning to converge.

And I was right. Within 5 more minutes of discussion we arrived at an alternative explanation for the CT scan when he finally scoped my nose and said "everything looks clear, do you irrigate your sinuses often?"

Moral of story, listening is everything. Even for an expert on ear medicine.

 

Some of the greatest musicians don't/ didn't read music. Chet Baker, Wes Montgomery, Allan Holdsworth, Adrian Belew, Paul McCartney, etc. I can usually figure out what's going on when listening to a guitarist or drummer, since I played those instruments. But I have no idea when it comes to a symphony orchestra or chamber group. I just listen.

 

That's like saying a great playwright doesn't need to be able to read and write. Mind you Shakespeare couldn't spell his own name consistently

Performers might not need musical literacy, but musicians most certainly do

 

I often feel reluctant to make comments on here, because I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself, which I think I have already done a couple times. Well, that's because I'm illiterate - musically speaking. I can't read it or play it. And so I don't know how to talk about it, except in terms of how it makes me feel. But the same music can get different emotions out of different people to some extent, so speaking with authority on my "feelings" is a no-go.

I love the Sir Thomas Beecham quote:

I often feel reluctant to make comments on here, because I'm afraid I'll embarrass myself, which I think I have already done a couple times. Well, that's because I'm illiterate - musically speaking. I can't read it or play it. And so I don't know how to talk about it, except in terms of how it makes me feel. But the same music can get different emotions out of different people to some extent, so speaking with authority on my "feelings" is a no-go.

I love the Sir Thomas Beecham quote:

"A musicologist is a man who can read music but can't hear it." Or another good one, "If I had my way, I would like to make people who like music, listen to it occasionally."

That's one thing I can do well, I think, is hear it. I can't explain why I like something, because I don't know how to.

My sister can read and play music, and she has told me that I can't really appreciate it as much because I'm not a musician like she is. Maybe I have an inferiority complex because I let that bother me. Most illiterate people can speak a language fluently, just not read or write it. And I think I am fluent at listening to music. I have loved listening to music from Machaut to Hertzberg and so much in between. I have so many CDs I can't count and have run out of room for already, and I can be in the mood to plop in a song cycle, a symphony, a cantata, an opera, I seem to love it in all forms. I can't get enough and I still make new discoveries. It's a journey that never ends.

Lately I've taken comfort in listening to Pettersson, whom I've just discovered, because he was one of those dirt poor wretches who made his way into the music world out of sheer will, and Swedes will only now acknowledge him after the fact. Plus his musicianship is appealing, of course.

His song cycle, "Barefoot Songs" has been having a profound effect on me. His childhood and mine I can somewhat relate to, I'll leave it at that.

And I learn a lot from many of yours expertise, so I say thank you.

make people who like music, listen to it occasionally."

That's one thing I can do well, I think, is hear it. I can't explain why I like something, because I don't know how to.

My sister can read and play music, and she has told me that I can't really appreciate it as much because I'm not a musician like she is. Maybe I have an inferiority complex because I let that bother me. Most illiterate people can speak a language fluently, just not read or write it. And I think I am fluent at listening to music. I have loved listening to music from Machaut to Hertzberg and so much in between. I have so many CDs I can't count and have run out of room for already, and I can be in the mood to plop in a song cycle, a symphony, a cantata, an opera, I seem to love it in all forms. I can't get enough and I still make new discoveries. It's a journey that never ends.

Lately I've taken comfort in listening to Pettersson, whom I've just discovered, because he was one of those dirt poor wretches who made his way into the music world out of sheer will, and Swedes will only now acknowledge him after the fact. Plus his musicianship is appealing, of course.

His song cycle, "Barefoot Songs" has been having a profound effect on me. His childhood and mine I can somewhat relate to, I'll leave it at that.

And I learn a lot from many of yours expertise, so I say thank you.

You can enjoy and appreciate music perfectly well without necessarily being able to read music, tell the instruments apart, etc. After all, the composer's presumed audiences mightn't have been musicians, either!

What's true is that you appreciate music in a different way when you can read it -- you pick up on more nuances and so forth; you can even, sometimes, appreciate the difficulties involved. (My having taken multiple conducting workshops has left me acutely aware of when the maestro is confusing the players.) This can be good -- another level of listening -- though it'd be nice to be able to listen with "fresh ears" again. As in many other areas, once you lose your innocence, you can't get it back!

 

"
There are times when I feel sorry for those who have great technical knowledge.
I have on occasion heard a few conversations when musicians, or at least musically educated individuals spent an inordinate length of time fretting over a minor technical fault in a performance and seemingly missing the fact that the concert was a totally enjoyable experience. I am glad that my uneducated ears perhaps allow me to attain a more pleasurable experience." Malx

Hi, Malx,
Don't feel sorry for us . . . it's part of the lifestyle. Musicians grow by learning from theirs and others mistakes. That's why they really appreciate a great performance. It's sort of like where you like to eat . . . some are happy at the Outback Steakhouse . . . others prefer the Ritz Carlton. It's all a matter of perspective.
Viajero