[Roger Knox]

The Symphony No. 5: De la montagne (1914) in F minor by Charles Tournemire (1870-1939) contrasts greatly with its successor symphony. With three different "takes" on its Alpine setting, and religion here remaining in the background, the emphasis is on nature related to people. The work is also very different from Richard Strauss's contemporaneous Alpine Symphony. Rather than climbing and conquering a mountain, Tournemire contemplates in three sections grandeur and drama of a mountain, beauty and passion in an Alpine meadow, and gaiety and optimism as our vision is directed upward to the light. Part I, a Choral varié, is best approached by listening to the opening brass chorale several times. The following variations are based on motifs from it interwoven in various ways, and are mainly of a tragic character. Connected to Tournemire's genius in organ improvisation is the high quality and increasing interest of these variations, with wind solos deftly deployed, chromaticism slyly added in, and accents or sforzandos keeping things lively. The movement literally extinguishes near the end into fragments.

Part II has two sections. In the Pastorale, set in an Alpine meadow, I am struck by Touremire's original take on modal harmony, avoiding one predominant tonal center and working in expressive gestures characteristic of late romanticism. He does not just compose one more typically smooth pastorale for strings and winds. Rather there is a suggestion of unease, then a full storm erupts furiously, but ends abruptly. Now the music becomes more passionate, beautifully paced and with barely noticeable transitions. The natural setting becomes one of yearning and calm. Vers la lumière is the final section, beginning with a light high-register dance in 6/8 meter featuring flutes that is soon contrasted with a heavy brass group. But the mood remains bright, with motifs bouncing back and forth, and syncopation ensuring that the rhythm stays alive. Declamation by French horns of a passage based on the whole tone scale is taken up by the other brass instruments, leading to a triumphant close in F major.

 

[Roger Knox]

Charles Tournemire's Symphony No. 4: Pages symphoniques (1912) is on a more modest and casual scale than the ones discussed previously. There is an enigmatic quality to this composition that I haven't quite figured out. It is in one movement divided into five clearly separated sections, each having a different tempo. The first, Assez lent, opens with a two-note descending motif that is repeated at a higher pitch level. From this slim beginning emerge passionate chromatic passages, while a rich variety of modal harmonies align with Impressionism. Avec du movement continues in that direction with whole-tone scale segments. In a lively 6/8 meter, it builds to a brass climax in which trombones come to the fore. Then, surprisingly, it peters out into fragments. Modéré surprises with a series of bell strokes, and a lovely hymn-like organ passage ensues. The strings feature open fifths and parallelism, and they turn the bell's pitches into a comforting chord. This section is diatonic and lightly scored, almost like chamber music.

Vif opens with sharply accented, detaché strings, frequently in syncopated time. From there the other components of the orchestra enter in a heavy 6/8 meter. The rhetoric of this movement is late romantic, with noble phrases but also an ironic touch. Silence separates the opening pitches of Lent, and a slinky chromatic motif enters in upward or downward versions on various instruments. From here we continue to a sweet passage for harp, horn and strings over an E major 6th chord. The tonal center wanders as the section draws to a close. Tournemire wrote this symphony on a visit to Britanny, inspired by the beautiful Breton seashore. Both this symphony and No. 5 are currently available on recordings by the Moscow Symphony/Almeida (Marco Polo, 1994).

 

[Gargamel]

Ah, Tournemire 6. I call that the "Nordic one". Wonder if he knew Leevi Madetoja who lived many years in France. (I'm especially thinking about Juha, the opera, not the suite which I loathe.)

 

[Roger Knox]

Ah, Tournemire 6. I call that the "Nordic one". Wonder if he knew Leevi Madetoja who lived many years in France. (I'm especially thinking about Juha, the opera, not the suite which I loathe.)

I can't answer that one but it seems plausible.

 

[Roger Knox]

Most popular among Charles Tournemire's earlier symphonies seems to be Symphony No. 3: Moscow (1913). It arose from a trip to Moscow by Tournemire and is a religion-based tribute to the Russian people. An organum-like theme in the winds that becomes the basis for variations opens the first movement. The style remains chant-like and modal. Gradually the orchestration and harmony become more adventurous. The last two variations are a canon and a statement of the theme with florid flute ornamentation. The second movement - Avec du mouvement - is a sort-of scherzo and a bit "light-headed" I would say, which according to an explanation by Andrew Hartman on MusicWeb-International suggests singing and dancing as the people move forward from pagan times. After an attractive passage for solo horn in the middle section, there is an uninhibited return of opening material, now in 6/8 time.

Les Cloches de Moscou - the slow movement and my favorite, begins with an orchestral representation of dissonant high harmonics in bells and followed by actual bells. Russian bells are not tuned to pitches in the way that western bells are, producing an effect thought by some to be rougher. Eventually a chorale melody emerges and a four-note scale motif which was descending earlier now ascends. By the finale the people have attained Christianity. The music continues with bells and the scale motif in a somewhat faster tempo, followed by an idyllic, pastoral section and a long, sustained close over the D major tonic chord. Although my description may suggest a simplistic work, it is actually very effective.

 

[Roger Knox]

It may be time to take a little break from the Tournemire symphonies countdown; anyhow, here is something completely different. Jean Roger-Ducasse (1873-1954) was recommended early on for this thread by Rick Riekert, especially the Sarabande pour les choeurs. And now, finally, here we are! Roger-Ducasse's orchestral music is mainly of two types: (1) symphonic poems and other one-movement works, a majority of them impressionist in style; (2) suites and other light music, concise and expertly orchestrated. Most of his recorded music appears on Roger-Ducasse, Orchestral Works, Vols. 1 & 2 by the Rheinland-Pfalz Philharmonic/Leif Segerstam, SWR Digital (2015); earlier releases of these recordings on Marco Polo are also available. Of the symphonic poems I am particularly taken by Nocturne de printemps (1920), a post-impressionist work that begins with a hushed string ostinato and woodwind birdcalls - you get the idea. Then there is the earlier Au Jardin de Marguerite (1901-5) based on an episode in Goethe's Faust. This impressionist work is even closer to Debussy than the Nocturne, having the expected seventh and ninth chords, whole-tone scales and repeated phrases. It is very enjoyable given my tastes. Sarabande pour les choeurs (1907), an atmospheric and darker symphonic poem with wordless chorus, unfortunately lacks a decent recording. An old version by the NBC Orchestra/Toscanini, also including other French works, was released by Urania in 1999 but the audio is very subpar. It's time for a new recording, perhaps along with other Roger-Ducasse orchestral works that are out of the catalogue.

There are also two short symphonic gems in the Segerstam collection: Le Joli Jeu de furet - Scherzo (1909; furet meaning "ferret"); and the impressionist Prelude d'un ballet. Roger-Ducasse's suites are light music in a distinctively French style; they include the romantic Petite Suite (1897) and the more modern neo-classical Suite française (1907). Not to be confused with the suite is the extended Marche française (1914) that is more than a march, as World War I was more than a war. Finally, Epithalame (1923) is an extended collage of wedding music, an experimental piece with frequent cross-cutting of passages in widely varying styles. Although I didn't find it convincing, the composition does adumbrate the style-mixing by composers over forty years later. Roger-Ducasse should not be judged only by his light music. He composed in a wide variety of genres including opera and was a professor at the Paris Conservatory for many years.

Up next: Tournemire countdown: Symphonies Nos. 2 and 1; Reynaldo Hahn: Violin and Piano Concertos; Tournemire: Symphony No. 8; Summary of "Composers born 1850-74."

 

[Roger Knox]

Upon listening to Charles Tournemire's Nos. 1 and 2, it struck me that he is a natural symphonist, comfortable with the large form and the orchestral medium. Nevertheless, in my opinion there are problems with these symphonies that make them less satisfactory than the subsequent ones. The three-movement Symphony No. 2: Ouessant (1909) is named after Brittany's striking Isle of Ouessant, which Tournemire loved. The first movement is ingenious but I find it too long (20 minutes). I must acknowledge that the composer varies its abrupt motif's mode and rhythm; inverts, stretches, or extends it by sequence; and adds counterpoint in a slow section, but in the end it seems overworked. Movement two - très calme - begins with a diatonic melody in F minor. Contrasting sections and active counter-melodies are attractive. The third movement features brass in an impressive chorale, but the cyclic principle here means that the abrupt motif of movement one recurs. A final apotheosis brings the work to a close.

I prefer Tournemire's Symphony No. 1: "Romantic" (1901) to Symphony No. 2. The opening movement is lively, full of musical invention, and brilliantly orchestrated. The striking jagged theme of successive rising intervals creates expectancy. I find the movement's ending aggressive and unrestrained, though. Next is the Scherzo, featuring woodwinds that give it an outdoor feel. Cross-rhythms enliven the triple meter, and the repeated chord progression E major-B half-diminished adds a sprightly Spanish flavor. The Largo movement has the sense of a funeral march. The opening rhythmic pattern, with three triplet quarter notes followed by two regular quarter notes in common time, strikes me as Spanish also. The music becomes grand in character with an extended section for brass and timpani alone. Applying the cyclic process in the Finale, the jagged rising theme from the first movement re-enters, now in 6/8 time. So does the Spanish chord progression from the Scherzo. Approaching the close the symphony hurtles towards a wild ending. The profusion of material and uninhibited energy leaves me with an impression of disparate elements that do not quite coalesce. Perhaps that explains why Tournemire made his Second Symphony so rigorously structured. Anyway, his first two symphonies became an auspicious start to a unique symphonic career.

 

[Roger Knox]

Discovering the violin and piano concertos by Reynaldo Hahn (1874-1947) has been one of the pleasures of working on this thread. The Violin Concerto in D Major (1926-7) has a strange history - the score having disappeared after the premiere, and the next performance having occurred only in 1987! Hahn was a prodigy as both pianist and composer, and his style remained the one he established before 1900. Known now for over 100 mélodies, Hahn also did significant work in opera, incidental music, and chamber music that is now neglected. Nevertheless, the Violin Concerto has been well-received and is available in more than one recording package featuring soloist Denis Clavier with the Orchestre National de Lorraine/Fernand Quatrocchi. The first movement marked Décidé is replete with precision and wit in the manner of Massenet's orchestral suites. A Chant d'amour is unique, evoking the city of Tunis with music in which time seems suspended, in part because of Hahn's ingenious avoidance of any sense of a bar-line. In the last movement, Clavier takes us on a perpetual motion adventure in which his secure and lively playing is irresistible.

Hahn's Piano Concerto (1930) I found notable first of all for its dedicatee, the outstanding Brazilian-French virtuoso Magda Tagliaferro (1893-1986). The collaboration between composer and pianist strikes me as ideal, and her recording with Hahn conducting is still the one to beat if you like old piano recordings as I do. Her playing is colorful with plenty of temperament and the freedom to make the first movement sound like its title: Improvisation. Her light, fleet-fingered pianism is fully up to the work's great technical challenges. The brief second-movement scherzo is more modern harmonically, while both the first and last movements open with a sincere nostalgic sensibility that perhaps connects to Hahn's young years as a performing pianist. As for recordings other than Tagliaferro/Hahn, there is The Romantic Piano Concerto 15: Hahn and Massenet with Stephen Coombs, piano and the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra/Ossonce (Hyperion, 1997). For both concertos there is Hahn: Concertos for Violin & Piano/Suite Hongroise including violinist Denis Clavier and pianist Angeline Pondrepeyre with the Orchestre National de Lorraine/Fernand Quatrocchi (Maguelone, 2001).

 

[mparta]

Upon listening to Charles Tournemire's Nos. 1 and 2, it struck me that he is a natural symphonist, comfortable with the large form and the orchestral medium. Nevertheless, in my opinion there are problems with these symphonies that make them less satisfactory than the subsequent ones. The three-movement Symphony No. 2: Ouessant (1909) is named after Brittany's striking Isle of Ouessant, which Tournemire loved. The first movement is ingenious but I find it too long (20 minutes). I must acknowledge that the composer varies its abrupt motif's mode and rhythm; inverts, stretches, or extends it by sequence; and adds counterpoint in a slow section, but in the end it seems overworked. Movement two - très calme - begins with a diatonic melody in F minor. Contrasting sections and active counter-melodies are attractive. The third movement features brass in an impressive chorale, but the cyclic principle here means that the abrupt motif of movement one recurs. A final apotheosis brings the work to a close.

I prefer Tournemire's Symphony No. 1: "Romantic" (1901) to Symphony No. 2. The opening movement is lively, full of musical invention, and brilliantly orchestrated. The striking jagged theme of successive rising intervals creates expectancy. I find the movement's ending aggressive and unrestrained, though. Next is the Scherzo, featuring woodwinds that give it an outdoor feel. Cross-rhythms enliven the triple meter, and the repeated chord progression E major-B half-diminished adds a sprightly Spanish flavor. The Largo movement has the sense of a funeral march. The opening rhythmic pattern, with three triplet quarter notes followed by two regular quarter notes in common time, strikes me as Spanish also. The music becomes grand in character with an extended section for brass and timpani alone. Applying the cyclic process in the Finale, the jagged rising theme from the first movement re-enters, now in 6/8 time. So does the Spanish chord progression from the Scherzo. Approaching the close the symphony hurtles towards a wild ending. The profusion of material and uninhibited energy leaves me with an impression of disparate elements that do not quite coalesce. Perhaps that explains why Tournemire made his Second Symphony so rigorously structured. Anyway, his first two symphonies became an auspicious start to a unique symphonic career.

So I think the only recordings are from Moscow? That is true and what you're hearing? The performances are adequate? There had been some comparisons somewhere to the Belgian orchestra to the detriment of the Russians.

 

[Roger Knox]

So I think the only recordings are from Moscow? That is true and what you're hearing? The performances are adequate? There had been some comparisons somewhere to the Belgian orchestra to the detriment of the Russians.

Thanks for your post -- I appreciate your interest! I've listened mostly on YT to the Moscow Symphony Orchestra/Alatmeida recordings now on Naxos. The exception is No. 6 which is only available by the Conservatoire Royale de Liège/Bartholomée. As far as I can determine they also recorded No. 3 and No. 7, and also No. 5 and No. 8, and are said to be better - more energetic - than the Moscow, though I haven't made the comparison. We really need new recordings to replace those of 1994 & 1995 vintage. We also need a top orchestra to take them on -- same with Ropartz, Magnard, & Koechlin.

 

[CnC Bartok]

I cannot add anything to your fine thoughts on the Magnard symphonies; all I can say is I adore the last two, especially the Fourth, and I do wish they would become proper repertoire items, rather than relative rarities (both on disc and in the concert hall).

 

[Roger Knox]

There is brief discussion of Charles Tournemire's Symphony No. 7 (1915-19) in posts #85-91. His Symphony No. 8: Le triomphe de la mort (1924) stretches far from romanticism or impressionism. The composer's last symphony, it crosses into modernism in numerous ways. In Part 1, fragments assemble and disassemble into motifs including one that predominates: E-C#-F#-D#. Wind instruments rather than strings come to the fore, scoring is light, rhythm is syncopated and there are frequent ostinati, all of which remind me of Stravinsky and certain French composers of the 1920's. Tournemire has assimilated tonal materials of impressionism into his own particular style: the whole-tone scale and Lydian mode, augmented triad, and parallelism, especially at the fifth. And birdlike flutes remind me of Tournemire's strong connection to come with Olivier Messiaen.

In Part 2 there are extreme contrasts between sonorities with screeching piccolos followed by pianissimo string chords. The latter become thicker and more sustained in the work's most emotional passage, and then there is silence. In the final section celebratory bells and bell-like instrumental patterns, cheerful motifs, colorful glissandi and added brass suggest the celestial hereafter.

Please continue to add your thoughts and opinions. Tournemire is the last composer of the French orchestral composers born 1850-1874 that we will discuss. Watch for a brief summary of that group. After that I will make a few suggestions about composers born 1875-99 ...

 

[Roger Knox]

I cannot add anything to your fine thoughts on the Magnard symphonies; all I can say is I adore the last two, especially the Fourth, and I do wish they would become proper repertoire items, rather than relative rarities (both on disc and in the concert hall).

Thank you for your comments. Doing this thread is a lot of work and, if the truth be known, I worry a lot about mistakes and misunderstandings. I hope when the pandemic settles down somebody somewhere will see Magnard as an inspiring figure as we do.

 

[Roger Knox]

Conclusions About Composers Born 1850-1874:

In view of this thread's title, and having listened to most of the composers' orchestral works (always including concertos and concertante pieces), here are my conclusions. "Unheralded" means "for orchestral music," and does not include the composer's other music.

Not unheralded, many compositions: Debussy
Not unheralded, many compositions but few played:
D'Indy, Roussel
Not unheralded, few compositions: Chausson, Chaminade, Dukas

Unheralded, many compositions: Pierné, Ropartz, Magnard, Koechlin, Schmitt, Tournemire
Unheralded, few compositions: Messager, G. Charpentier, Emmanuel, Vierne, Séverac, Roger-Ducasse, Hahn

My personal favourites are: Debussy, D'Indy, Chausson, Ropartz, Magnard, Koechlin, Schmitt, Emmanuel, Tournemire

 

[mparta]

And now, just because I'm thinking about it.....

I have been trying to familiarize myself with more music by Florent Schmitt, since I like some of the piano music and particularly a transcription for piano and orchestra played by Vincent Larderet.

This runs into 2 issues, the musical one is the rather right-sided character, as in it has a Rhinelandish feel (but really, look at his teachers as listed, couldn't be more French). Still, there was a powerful internal debate about Wagnerism and Schmitt's orchestral works do land on the darker side. Many of the composers listed on this thread were dedicated Bretons, and Schmitt presents a flavor of Germanism, I think. Combined with his reprehensible politics (joining luminaries such as Alfred Cortot), I think it presents a matter for thought. It may not be relevant. But it might. It might fit into something bigger than the music, along the lines of "Never forget".

 

[Roger Knox]

And now, just because I'm thinking about it.....

I have been trying to familiarize myself with more music by Florent Schmitt, since I like some of the piano music and particularly a transcription for piano and orchestra played by Vincent Larderet.

This runs into 2 issues, the musical one is the rather right-sided character, as in it has a Rhinelandish feel (but really, look at his teachers as listed, couldn't be more French). Still, there was a powerful internal debate about Wagnerism and Schmitt's orchestral works do land on the darker side. Many of the composers listed on this thread were dedicated Bretons, and Schmitt presents a flavor of Germanism, I think. Combined with his reprehensible politics (joining luminaries such as Alfred Cortot), I think it presents a matter for thought. It may not be relevant. But it might. It might fit into something bigger than the music, along the lines of "Never forget".

I think these are important issues and yes, there are problems with Florent Schmitt. Will get back to you soon.

 

[Roger Knox]

Looking Forward :
There will be a few more posts about composers we've considered up to now. Otherwise, I'm taking a 2-3 week break.

Our last generation of French orchestral composers will be those born between 1875-1899 whose music may be described as late romantic, post-romantic, or impressionist. Some of these moved into neoclassicism, for example Maurice Ravel (1875-1937).* We won't be discussing him here -- he's certainly not unheralded!

The Les Six group of composers** and Jacques Ibert (1890-1962) mostly wrote neoclassical music, but there may be discussion of some of their early works. Neoclassicism is one current of modernism.

Composers we may consider include Louis Aubert, Jean Huré, Gustave Samazuilh, André Caplet, Philippe Gaubert, Joseph Canteloube, Jean Cras, and others.
____________

*Examples of Ravel orchestral works: late romantic or "romantic-classic" (Pavane for a Dead Infant); impressionist (Miroirs); neoclassical (Le tombeau de Couperin).

** Les Six composers:
Darius Milhaud (1892-1974)
Francis Poulenc (1899-1963)
Arthur Honegger (1892-1955)
Germaine Tailleferre (1892-1983
Georges Auric (1899-1983)
Louis Durey (1888-1979)

 

[Roger Knox]

Looking Forward (cont.'d.):

I hope we will take the music and composers mentioned in the previous thread as seriously as we did the others. But it would be nice to lighten the work load and assume a more "summer-y" spirit from here on. If anyone has a particular interest they'd like to follow -- e.g. composer, type of work, region of France -- please let me know and we'll work it in. Generally speaking it isn't necessary to provide a lot of detail in posts -- in fact, a straightforward statement on how you experience the music is very valuable. I know there are counter-examples, but most classical music is composed with the intention of being taken seriously, and not subjected to arcane explanations or extreme distortions.

 

[Roger Knox]

And now, just because I'm thinking about it.....

I have been trying to familiarize myself with more music by Florent Schmitt, since I like some of the piano music and particularly a transcription for piano and orchestra played by Vincent Larderet.

This runs into 2 issues ... Combined with his reprehensible politics (joining luminaries such as Alfred Cortot), I think it presents a matter for thought. It may not be relevant. But it might. It might fit into something bigger than the music, along the lines of "Never forget".

mparta, Concerning issue 2, I hold to what I wrote about Schmitt in post #106: "Nevertheless his reputation has been damaged by his troubling political views in the 1930's and collaboration with the pro-German Vichy government during World War II." Because of TC current policy on music and politics I'm not going further. There is plenty of information about Schmitt and politics of the 1930's and '40's on the internet. The web site "Music and the Holocaust" has information on some French composers of the time, but for Schmitt one has to go further realizing that some sources are biased. Also, personally I think that a composer of Schmitt's caliber is worth hearing, yet indeed agree with you "Never forget" -- what he collaborated with. (reply about issue 1 to come)

 

[89Koechel]

Roger (and/or others, interested) - Are you aware that Schmitt has a website? ... simply "florentschmitt.com". A friend of mine contributes to it, regularly, and sends me emails about the composer's career and legacy.