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Roger - Also, thanks for including d'Indy. His output was variable, but his Symphony #2 is VERY-original, virtually one-of-a-kind. Undoubtedly, it's NEVER performed anymore, and has (I think) only two recordings. One is by the master - Monteux, which is probably the best.
 
Discussion starter · #162 · (Edited)
This runs into 2 issues, the musical one is the rather right-sided character, as in it has a Rhinelandish feel (but really, look at his teachers as listed, couldn't be more French). Still, there was a powerful internal debate about Wagnerism and Schmitt's orchestral works do land on the darker side. Many of the composers listed on this thread were dedicated Bretons, and Schmitt presents a flavor of Germanism, I think.
mparta, Issue 1 is the Germanic quality of Florent Schmitt's music, how do we interpret that? I'm glad you separated that from issue 2, Schmitt's pro-German collaboration in World War 2. There are French late nineteenth century orchestral composers whose music has German, specifically Wagnerian qualities, but who were not fascist, anti-semitic, or German-supporting -- Chausson and Magnard come to mind.

Schmitt was born to ethnically German parents in the region of Lorraine, which as a result of the Franco-Prussian war became part of Germany along with Alsace in 1870, the year of Schmitt's birth. (By contrast, Charles Koechlin was also born in Lorraine but to French parents, who took off to the west and France immediately after the German acquisition.) Schmitt's advanced education in composition was with Massenet and Fauré at the Paris Consérvatoire -- both very French composers as you say. But Fauré had learned his Wagner well from Saint-Saens at the progressive Niedermeyer School in Paris. And he did not impose his own style on his students, so that an outstanding talent like Schmitt (who may have been influenced by German orchestral music in score-reading, performance, etc.) could have proceeded on his own path. As for landing on the darker side, there were in the late nineteenth century any number of composers from both France and Germany, not to mention poets, novelists, dramatists, painters, and thinkers who did too. You mention the pro- and anti-Wagner polemics in France, another factor. I'd never thought of Brittanny in northwest France being at an opposite pole from the Rhineland (Alsace-Lorraine, etc.) culturally, but of the French vs. German issue there is no doubt.

So all I can suggest re Schmitt's dark side are some possibilities: his temperament, the spirit of the time, sensationalism and competition, Nietszche, other ideas?
 
Discussion starter · #163 · (Edited)
89Koechel,

Yes I have seen the web site florentschmitt.com and it is excellent, possibly the best of its kind.

In the context of mparta's comments about Florent Schmitt's politics, I have not and will not endorse or criticize any web site or publication concerning that issue.
 
Roger - Also, thanks for including d'Indy. His output was variable, but his Symphony #2 is VERY-original, virtually one-of-a-kind. Undoubtedly, it's NEVER performed anymore, and has (I think) only two recordings. One is by the master - Monteux, which is probably the best.
Hi, 89Koechel.

This 1995 Koch CD resides in my music collection:

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The early '90s (& late '80s) witnessed a flourishing climate for album productions showcasing infrequently (and sometimes never) performed compositions as well as off-the-beaten-path repertoire never hitherto available within the pre-1990 mediums of vinyl or shellac records.

Myself not having purchased much of any classical music albums since 2012, however, haven't been keeping up-to-date on releases over the past 10 years. There appear to be more than 2 recordings of d'Indy's Symphonie #2, such as on a Chandos series and a Naxos disc.

One might possibly have 4 versions of d'Indy's 2nd if one is so inclined to have them all.

Never say "NEVER". :)
 
OK but D'Indy is a master, ignoring him is a distortion of the course of music, not only in France.
Alas, Roger Knox, these past few years has pulled my mind (unwillingly) towards the impending extinction of the music we love.
Not only will d'Indy be forgotten, I fear. Myself & Mr. Knox will be deceased prior to year 2100, so we'll not personally witness the future effects of the current 'woke' cancel culture.

True, by ignoring d'Indy a portion of musical history receives distortion - but this is precisely what I think some of the young music-makers wish upon: the de-colonization of English/French/Western European dominance in music.

Forgotten entirely? Perhaps not. Attempts to transport d'Indy from the outer margins into standard programs, though, will, in & of itself, get marginalized.
 
Alas, Roger Knox, these past few years has pulled my mind (unwillingly) towards the impending extinction of the music we love.
Not only will d'Indy be forgotten, I fear. Myself & Mr. Knox will be deceased prior to year 2100, so we'll not personally witness the future effects of the current 'woke' cancel culture.
Please tell me this is satire.
 
Discussion starter · #171 · (Edited)
In view of some recent changes in the Terms of Service, please don't get into political topics here, including current cultural politics.

I'm not a moderator, but having written the OP I am making the above request to posters. There is a moderated sub-forum "Politics and Religion in Classical Music."
 
Consistent with the foolishness of a life with too many CDs, I do have 3 D'Indy discs on Timpani, but no 2nd symphony:rolleyes:

But I can always make it worse by saying that I don't recall listening to the 3 I have (chamber music, orchestral works, a symphony "Italienne"?)

I think my French mountain song symphony is on a disc with Franck in another room. Highly organized.

So, recommendations here, I will seek out the 2nd symphony and LISTEN to it.:cheers:

I did note today on the current listening that I heard the Tournemire 5th and 8th last evening, the performance from Liege, and the 8th had my attention immediately, because it has some of the same very idiosyncratic virtues as the much bigger 7th. Lovely, makes its mark, makes me want to listen again.
 
Discussion starter · #175 ·
Alas, Roger Knox, these past few years has pulled my mind (unwillingly) towards the impending extinction of the music we love.
Not only will d'Indy be forgotten, I fear. Myself & Mr. Knox will be deceased prior to year 2100, so we'll not personally witness the future effects of the current 'woke' cancel culture.

True, by ignoring d'Indy a portion of musical history receives distortion - but this is precisely what I think some of the young music-makers wish upon: the de-colonization of English/French/Western European dominance in music.

Forgotten entirely? Perhaps not. Attempts to transport d'Indy from the outer margins into standard programs, though, will, in & of itself, get marginalized.
I'm not so sure. Things change over time. Anyway, Prodromides, please don't despair, and stay with that which you value because others value it too.:)
 
No mention of the Chandos set with Rumon Gamba (sp)? I am not a Chandos sound fan, generally seem brightened and artificial, but there's a set of at least 5 discs encompassing the d'Indy orchestral music, maybe with an Iceland orchestra?

Anyone know these?

I'm listening to my San Francisco/Monteux right now. I bet that if I prowled in my Franck section I would find a repeat of the Mountain Song symphony with the Franck symphony and the overture to Beatrice and Benedict. Anyone know that, I can't wrap my head around what that would have been as an (2?) lp(s). Or surely Munch figures into this somehow, especially for French Mountain Song (Air is wrong because it has two meanings in English, one quite wrong for this). I know Munch recorded the piece with his niece, with whom he had a more than avuncular relationship I think.
There, that'll spice things up.

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The San Francisco Monteux is volume 9 of the Monteux edition from RCA victor. Gold seal, not the red dog :lol:
 
Discussion starter · #178 · (Edited)
Referring back to Looking Forward - Post #157:

For once I'm running ahead of schedule and have completed my listening break in only 1-1/2 weeks! For the rest of this thread the focus is still on late romantic, post-romantic, and impressionist orchestral composers. Since post #157 Henrietta Renié (harpist), Paul Ladmirault (Breton composer) and Lili Boulanger are being added and a few others dropped. So far the music I've listened to by Les Six composers and Ibert has all been modernist -- and very good, but not for this thread (which I trust we will finish soon). Comments on TC have often emphasized the gap between the most heralded composers and the others. For this generation Maurice Ravel strikes me as being at another level altogether (super-heralded?), and would be so even if we included modernists like Milhaud, Poulenc, or Honegger. Please let me know what you think, and also of any thoughts you have about these composers born between 1875-1899 that we are discussing.
 
Are Milhaud, Ibert, Honegger, etc. modern?

I've considered the aesthetics of Les Six to be neo-classical and sometimes jazzy, contrasting with pre-WWI romanticism, but not modern in the post-WWII/Darmstadt sense.

As Caplet is one of my favorite French composers, I hope he is still to be included in upcoming reviews.
Also, a composer born after 1899 could still be a Romantic. How would one assess Pierre-Octave Ferroud (1900 - 1936), as an example?
 
Discussion starter · #180 · (Edited)
Are Milhaud, Ibert, Honegger, etc. modern?

I've considered the aesthetics of Les Six to be neo-classical and sometimes jazzy, contrasting with pre-WWI romanticism, but not modern in the post-WWII/Darmstadt sense.

As Caplet is one of my favorite French composers, I hope he is still to be included in upcoming reviews.
Also, a composer born after 1899 could still be a Romantic. How would one assess Pierre-Octave Ferroud (1900 - 1936), as an example?
Those are some good ideas! We coming up to the wonderful Andre Caplet. There are different definitions of modern and modernism in music, which makes things confusing, and I don't want to get into a discussion about modernism.

The way I learned it, musical landmarks around 1910 like Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, Schoenberg's Second String Quartet, last movement ("I feel the air of other planets"), and Bartok's Allegro barbaro for piano initiate the new era. The Les Six group brought in bitonality and pantonality (Milhaud) and the machine age (Honegger) among other things. Having listened to early chamber symphonies and symphonies by Milhaud and Honegger's Pacific 231 and First Symphony, I think they belong to the modern.

In this thread we're finishing with impressionism and postromanticism now and I'd like just to stick with that. Then we could continue in a new section on this thread, or start a new thread. If the First Symphony of Pierre-Octave Ferroud is any example, he certainly deserves more attention!
 
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