"People," eh?

Well, Beethoven's ninth is pretty OK by me. And since I can only listen to it with my own pair of ears, that's as far as I'd take it. I've even found that that very questionable last movement gets less and less questionable the more I hear it. The gaggy bits are still gaggy, but there really aren't that many of them, and they're really not all that gaggy.

Remember when you first saw "The Meaning of Life"? So many gross scenes in that movie, and after awhile expecting the next scene to be even worse. And then you saw it again. So few gross scenes, and not really all that gross, either.

But some people like to play around with ideas of greatness, it's true. Don't even get me started.

There are plenty of other works out there is how I'd put it.

Greatness only becomes an issue for me when music I find attractive is not recorded enough or even at all. But even then. Plenty of music in the world. Enough and more to keep me busy for this lifetime. Is there more? I just don't know.

 

Ah, your mistake, as has been pointed out above, is in believing in the premise of and hyperbole about "the greatest compositions (like) ever."

I wish I had one dollar for every time it has been said of some composer, "The greatest composer, ever" and "The greatest composition, ever."

Here is why: it has been said so many times about so many composers and different masterworks and some not masterworks, millions of times about a particular pop song of the moment, that I would be one very wealthy fellow.

Beethoven's 9th symphony is generally thought of as one great piece, but so are his 5th, 6th, 7th symphonies, and depending upon whom you ask, about three of his five piano concerti, the one violin concerto, a number of his sixteen string quartets, and another goodly handful of his 32 piano sonatas, his Missa Solemnis, and... well you get the idea.

Then we get to Bach, then Mozart, Brahms, Schumann, Schubert, Claudio Monteverdi, Wagner, Guillaume de Machaut, Jean-Phillipe Rameau, Mahler, Alban Berg, Schoenberg, Webern, Stravinsky, Luciano Berio, Charles Ives, uh... and quite a few more.

Don't worry about 'the greatest ever,' but do keep in mind if 99% of the people in the room call that thing standing on the floor in the middle of a room 'a table' -- it is most likely a table. You only have to think if you would agree it is a table, not if you personally like it as much as the others in the room.

I would recommend putting Beethoven's 9th away for several years, shelve those recordings, turn off the radio if it is announced. Then, perhaps two years from now sit down and give it another go. You may feel the same, maybe not: what will not happen right now is beating your head against a brick wall trying to hear why other people think whatever they do about it when you do not.

 

Beethoven's 9th? Well, it's way long. And people sing in the last movement (if you can believe that!) Some good tunes but overall a kind of misfire, I'd say.

 

I'tain't pretty, that's fo shoh....

 

1. Its the first choral symphony and requires a huge orchestra
2. Its uber long, and was longest symphony for quite some time
3. Its the last of a great cycle of symphonies, so by saying 9 is great is like saying the cycle is great
4. Like all Beethoven works, this symphony has great motivic development, especially the first movement. The way he builds on the motive and drives the music forward is just magnificent. And the same motive gets carried into the 2nd movement seamlessly. Just wonderful.
5. Structurally complex last movement. It has no overall structure at all, and yet it contains a theme and variations, a scherzo, and a fugue, ending with one of the longest coda ever written. And its great because of how Beethoven can merge these forms into one coherent movement, with a unified theme.
6. The message it carries, of universal brotherhood, is great

 

3. Its the last of a great cycle of symphonies, so by saying 9 is great is like saying the cycle is great
4. Like all Beethoven works, this symphony has great motivic development, especially the first movement. The way he builds on the motive and drives the music forward is just magnificent. And the same motive gets carried into the 2nd movement seamlessly. Just wonderful.
5. Structurally complex last movement. It has no overall structure at all, and yet it contains a theme and variations, a scherzo, and a fugue, ending with one of the longest coda ever written. And its great because of how Beethoven can merge these forms into one coherent movement, with a unified theme.
6. The message it carries, of universal brotherhood, is great

I'm not going to disagree with the overall judgement: I like the 9th a lot. But I'm not sure that breaking down the symphony and calling the component parts simply calling them great gets us much nearer a reason for greatness. Though pointing to, for example, 'motivic development' might help narrow it a little, you then have to ask, "What's great about the motivic development?" and "What's special about motivic development (in symphonies generally)?"

At the time it was written, it was only the latest, not the last, and was not part of a 'cycle' at all, surely.

 

I agree. It's overrated. I prefer his earlier Symphonies tbh. I know that is blasphemy to some.

 

I wouldn't put much stock in folks who make accusations of blasphemy.

 

I don't get it either. For me it is not the best piece of music ever by a very long shot, not even the best symphony by a very long shot, not even the best Beethoven symphony (I prefer 6/5/3/7 over the 9th).

 

not even the best Beethoven symphony (I prefer 6/5/3/7 over the 9th).

"The best" and what "you prefer"? Don't even go there!

 

Because it is

 

I like the first three movements very much. I appreciate the use of the vocals in the final movement as it paved the way for other works. But I don't like the fourth movement on its own merit at all. It's simply my own personal preference, but I'm not a fan of "bombastic" singing. I prefer Mahler's use of symphonic vocals.

 

I like the first three movements very much. I appreciate the use of the vocals in the final movement as it paved the way for other works. But I don't like the fourth movement on its own merit at all. It's simply my own personal preference, but I'm not a fan of "bombastic" singing to me. I prefer Mahler's use of symphonic vocals.

You have 'an attitude'. Contrary to the opinion of high school principals, that is not a bad thing. I seem to have retained enough testosterone in my dotage to sometimes be 'lifted up' by bombast. Some performances of the 9th are a chariot ride from start to finish.

 

"Why classical fans regard it as the greatest ever." From a fan standpoint, probably because of its transcendence. All those forces assembled together, then rising at the end singing of uniting mankind through the love of God and the love for our brother, speaks to the core of the human condition.

There are many pieces like it, maybe pieces better than it, but many still agree with the old pop song* which said, "Other guys imitate us, but the original is still the greatest."

[*Dobie Gray's The In Crowd]

 

I listen to it about once every ten years. This gives me plenty of time for other music.

 

"Why do people consider Beethoven's 9th Symphony one of the greatest compositions ever?"

It's not just "music" like Haydn; this has extra-musical attachments. Not just "music," this is IDEA. This is "art." It's iconic. The chorus at the end represents Humanity in harmony, working together for a better world of love. It's more inspiring than a mere religious-based Mass. It does mention God (behind the star-canopy) but it transcends mere religion by making God seem available to all. It is a "giving" symphony. Beethoven forgot about his own ego, and reached out to Humanity. The finale is ultimate; the last finale for Beethoven, and the real feeling of a true finale, with fireworks. This is spectacle; the sheer forces involved, of the human voice, adding speech (extra-musical text). No, this is not scripture, this is poetry. Beethoven was a Mason, and the Masons were eclectic. Beehoven was also cognizant of the nineteenth century interest in the Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita. The openings of the early movements have a "drone" quality to them; Beethoven had obviously "tuned-in" to the drone, the cosmic note, the BIG NOTE.

"Why are some people less than enthusiastic about Beethoven's 9th Symphony, one of the greatest compositions ever?"

I guess for the same reasons some people don't care about the middle class. "I've got my stack, Jack! I don't need no ideas in my music! Survival of the fittest, I'm a good Christian, and I don't need no Beethoven telling me I have to "love my brother!"

 

"Why do people consider Beethoven's 9th Symphony one of the greatest compositions ever?"

It's not just "music" like Haydn; this has extra-musical attachments. Not just "music," this is IDEA. This is "art."

I'm pretty sure it's just music. Like Haydn.

I like your essay though.

 

"Bombastic" ? I never noticed that. It is a wonderful piece of music --including the last movement--and I never tire of it .
i
It has to be done by the right people of course but when it is,it's a knockout!!

I know of nothing comparable and certainly see no point doing so in any case and most certainly not with Mahler.

 

Another good question. Why does it seem people think longer=better when it comes to Symphonies? Mahler and Bruckner get mentioned all the time and I think I know why.

 

IMO that is not a 'good question'. Guess it's a matter of whose 'people' concept we use.

 

Yes, it is rather long, isn't it? But it certainly is a most engaging piece.

 

It is herasy to say otherwise.

 

As one of the members who loves both Bruckner and Mahler, length does not come into my appreciation at all (in fact, my favourite Mahler symphony is the 4th, the shortest).

 

You don't think the Vivaldi Concertos or the Brandenburg's get enough love neo? Yes, I know that there's far more beyond those. But I think there's simply emphasis on other Baroque era compositions in addition to those pieces. Where modern music you hear more discussion of symphonies, but there is rarely discussion of modern choral works. It's more of what's the more popular genre of the era, and less of a "longer is better" Last time I checked, it was Bach that was dubbed the greatest composer by TalkClassical participants....not Bruckner, not Mahler, not even Beethoven.

For me, if anything, length has served as a DETERRENT in the past, in progressive metal (my other favored genre) as well as classical. I'm more accustomed to it now. But it's what Mahler DOES with his time that astounds me so, whether it's 5 minutes or 75

 

Yes Bach tends to be the favorite though I think there is more to Baroque than Bach. Anyways, Baroque gets neglected by many here imo. Romanticism seems to draw people here. I guess it is a more serious style of music. Not for the casual fan.

 

Baroque music is mostly "cerebral" music, and more architectural than romanticism or classicism. In Baroque music every note is important and has its role...It is music for people with different kinds of expectation...most see it as mere background music but I consider it more than that. Every style has its beauty, strong or not-so-strong aspects, it only depends which ones are you interested in. I prefer Baroque because it is highly organised music, harmonious (one can say that about Mahler too, but I often find myself bored by the ambiguous harmonic language used by post-beethovenian composers)...it is music that serves as aesthetic, which brings pure emotions...maybe some people find these things boring, and head toward romanticism since it is more varied-emotionally, vaguer and it is their choice.

 

It's one of the greatest, but there are too many other masterpieces to call it greater than everything else. Maybe it's the greatest piece used in TV commercials.

 

I doubt that anyone with any musical sense says it is the greatest of all because that means nothing whatever.
When did you last hear it on TV in an advert as a matter of interest?

 

Why Beethoven's Ninth

I feel a little hesitant to jump into this discussion because most of you guys know more about Beethoven than I do, but I will give it a try. Most of you probably already know this.

Throughout the history of Western European Classical Music there have been seminal works that when they appeared the audience heard something completely new. Two examples of this are Wagner's Tristan and Isolde and Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Beethoven appears to have accomplished this several times in his career. Along with the Ninth the ones I can think of are his Third Symphony and his late string quartets. I am sure that many can think of a few more.

I have had the opportunity to have performed the Contrabassoon in the Ninth twice with my community orchestra. This is one of the first great contrabassoon parts in the orchestra literature and by today's standards is still one of the most challenging to perform. The first time I played it I had only been playing the contra a few years and I could not cut it. After twenty years experience, I did a much better job of it last spring. With a community group one actually spends several weeks working and living with a piece. Performing the Ninth was one of the most awesome experiences in my life.

In order to understand the greatness of the Ninth one must put themselves in the audience that heard it for the first time. There are several innovations in this work including the use of a choir in a symphony. To out modern ears, after being exposed to Bruckner, Mahler and Shostakovitch, there is really nothing that earth shattering about it. For many the music is trivial and bombastic. But try to put yourself in that audience in 1824. Up until then audiences were primarily exposed to the symphonies of Haydn, Mozart and their contemporaries. I have read that Beethoven wanted to premier the work in Berlin instead of Vienna because he did not think the Viennese audience could handle it. Although the work was under rehearsed and it was a sloppy performance the audience was overwhelmed.

Sorry if I appear too much in awe of this work or stating the obvious.

 

I have had the opportunity to have performed the Contrabassoon in the Ninth twice with my community orchestra. This is one of the first great contrabassoon parts in the orchestra literature and by today's standards is still one of the most challenging to perform.

Thanks for sharing that. I've never paid much attention to the contrabassoon part, but it does look like you do a fair share of skittering around in the last movement. I'm going to pull out my score and follow along tonight. I'll be thinking of you! :tiphat:

 

Historically, the criticisms of the 9th Symphony mostly involved the final movement, which remains somewhat controversial. A fairly early comment from Spohr: "The fourth movement is, in my opinion, so monstrous and tasteless and, in its grasp of Schiller's Ode, so trivial that I cannot understand how a genius like Beethoven could have written it."

 

Not sure about adverts, but you can look up Ludwig at IMDB and find some of the movies/TV where his symphonies have been used...

http://uk.imdb.com/name/nm0002727/

 

It's a piece that has grown on me; the more I listen to it, the more I love it. It's not a simple affair. Give it time and several listens. I love the fact that Beethoven sounds even more serious in the 9th than in his other symphonies!

p.s. I know the 8th is pretty funny and non-serious at times, and also great because of it.

 

I love B's 9 very much, but D's 9 even better personally.

 

I just listened to Dvorak's Ninth last night on Spotify, and it still sounds as fresh and exciting to me as when I first heard it as a teenager in junior high-school.

 

I did not value Beethoven's 9th symphony very much when I heard it the first few times... Then I got Furtwänglers 1942 performance, Furtwänglers 1951 performance an Furtwänglers 1954 performance. I've listened to each a single time, and all of them landed me in an inexplicable state of rioting emotions and eventually, submerged joy. That man was made for this symphony, like Bernstein was made for Mahler.