[Macbeth]

I would hate to be an American teen in middle school with the last name of Fagioli.

Well, in Italy he would be "Mr. Beans".

 

[Parsifal98]

I cannot say why I like them because I can't stand them.

 

[Op.123]

I cannot say why I like them because I can't stand them.

🤣🤣🤣

I can tolerate them on occasion. I think most people listen to them under the mistaken impression that the generally uncentred, non-core-bel-canto sounds they make are authentic to Baroque music.

 

[chat_brun]

I think countertenors are very weird, because essentially most tenors should be able to sing their parts without having to compromise manliness of the core voice. Never understood why modern tenors don't develop their head voices (as if any parts of their voice are actually developed, but anyways..)

 

[Macbeth]

I think countertenors are very weird, because essentially most tenors should be able to sing their parts without having to compromise manliness of the core voice. Never understood why modern tenors don't develop their head voices (as if any parts of their voice are actually developed, but anyways..)

The most common path to becoming a countertenor is usually to have been a choirboy good enough to become a soloist, who on reaching the voice change discovers that what is going to be his "natural" voice is too poor to make a career out of it. So the flexibility of the vocal cords is maintained through constant training. At least that's the trajectory I think I've heard from a few, I almost certainly read it in an interview with Max Emanuel Cenčić.

 

[chat_brun]

The most common path to becoming a countertenor is usually to have been a choirboy good enough to become a soloist, who on reaching the voice change discovers that what is going to be his "natural" voice is too poor to make a career out of it. So the flexibility of the vocal cords is maintained through constant training. At least that's the trajectory I think I've heard from a few, I almost certainly read it in an interview with Max Emanuel Cenčić.

Very interesting, I always felt like the average tenor with a decent head voice up to an F5/G5 could easily sing any countertenor arias.

 

[Macbeth]

Very interesting, I always felt like the average tenor with a decent head voice up to an F5/G5 could easily sing any countertenor arias.

Well, there is nothing easy about it in the case of those who venture into the repertoire of the castrati, which is the case of Cenčić. Not the easiest to the ear by the way, but a great singer nevertheless.

 

[Ineffable]

I dislike countertenors because they mostly sing improperly. Falsetto is a false register where the cords aren't adducing, and thus has very little penetrative power. If they wish to "sing like a woman," then they should sing like a woman, i.e., developing their chest registration up to F4/F#4, and sometimes G4--mostly mezzos--dense "middle voice" (strong chest register and and the "whoop timbre" pulled up), from G to D5, and then head voice (less chest pull, stronger whoop timbre, but cords adduce unlike in falsetto), all the way to the top. Their voices would be much stronger, clearer, resonant, and penetrative, with the added "drawback" of sounding too much like a woman. I suspect that last part is why they compromise with the very wimpy "falsettone."

 

[Woodduck]

The most common path to becoming a countertenor is usually to have been a choirboy good enough to become a soloist, who on reaching the voice change discovers that what is going to be his "natural" voice is too poor to make a career out of it. So the flexibility of the vocal cords is maintained through constant training. At least that's the trajectory I think I've heard from a few, I almost certainly read it in an interview with Max Emanuel Cenčić.

That's the story of a friend of mine, the possessor of a very nice tenor voice who went to some cathedral in England (I forget which one), emerged as a countertenor, and had a very successful and varied musical career back in the States. I liked his tenor voice better than his countertenor one - we sang together on occasion - but the change was certainly beneficial to him.

 

[Josquin13]

It's how they work within the vocal blend that is so special, especially their interaction with the tenor and baritone parts in a smaller vocal ensemble (one or two singers on a part), where the individuality of each vocal part can be heard more distinctly & clearly than in a large cumbersome, more homogenous, less nimble, less lithe choir. In early music, I'd say this vocal mix offers some of the most rarified & 'other worldly' moments in music history.

If you're curious what I'm talking about, have a listen to the countertenor Robert Harre-Jones in the original Orlando Consort line up, especially on their album of Marian Motets by Josquin Desprez; along with the Orlando's two albums of music by Johannes Ockeghem & Philippe De Vitry, etc.. Harre-Jones' singing on the Josquin disc in particular offers some of the finest countertenor singing I've ever heard, in some of the most sublime music that I know,

Yet, for me, there is nothing more ethereal & beautiful in music than the interweaving vocal timbres & blend that can be achieved between a countertenor, tenor, and treble voice (usually sung by a female soprano that sounds like a boy treble). Such as occurs in places on the following album by the Italian vocal group De Labyrintho, led by Walter Testolin, singing Josquin's underrated masterpiece, Missa Gaudeamas:

Both the Orlando & De Labyrintho discs go with me to my desert island.

Another favorite countertenor of mine is the late John Fleagle, who sang with yet another favorite early music group of mine, Ensemble P.A.N., or Project Ars Nova (as well as other groups):

--Ars Magis Subtiliter: Secular Music of the Chantilly Codex:

--Homage To Johannes Ciconia (1370-1412):

--The Island of St. Hylarion: Music of Cyprus:

Other favorite countertenors include the following singers:

--Michael Chance--for example, his singing of William Byrd's moving consort song, Ye Sacred Muses, composed upon the death of Byrd's teacher, Thomas Tallis (etc.):

Elegy on the death of Thomas Tallis (Ye sacred muses)

--Countertenors James Bowman & Charles Brett on the pioneering classic albums by David Munrow & his Early Music Consort of London, etc.:

--Dufay: Se la face ay pale:
Gloria ad modum tubae

--The Art of the Netherlands:
Scaramella va alla guerra

--Music of the Gothic Era:
David Munrow (1976) : Music Of The Gothic Era :: The Early Music Consort Of London

etc.

--David James, a founding member of the Hilliard Ensemble:

Veni Sancte Spiritus et emitte/Veni Sancte Spiritus et infunde/Veni Creator Spiritus mentes tu...
Guillaume Dufay - Missa 'L'homme armé', & Motets [The Hilliard Ensamble]
The Hilliard Ensemble - Sabbato Sancto - Responsorium 1 (Carlo Gesualdo)
Various - The Old Hall Manuscript - English Music c.1410-1415 [The Hilliard Ensemble]
01 Viderunt omnes - Pérotin (1/2)
1. Ockeghem: Requiem aeternam
Josquin Desprez - Motets & Chansons - The Hilliard Ensemble

--René Jacobs, especially his singing with Kees Otten & Syntagma Musicum in their pioneering classic box set, "Dufay and His Times":

Ave virgo qua de caelis

--Alfred Deller, a pioneering countertenor in the 20th century, sometimes called "the godfather of countertenors":

Alfred Deller performs Dowland's 'Flow my Tears'.

--Carlos Mena, & his work with Al Ayre Español, Ensemble Gilles Binchois, Ricercar Consort, etc. I've particularly like his singing of Tomás Luis de Victoria's Motets for solo voice:

O magnum mysterium

--Matthew White:
Ye Sacred Muses, Elegy on the death of Thomas Tallis (William Byrd)

--Daniel Taylor, especially in the music of J.S. Bach & Handel with the Theater of Early Music, plus his various recordings with soprano Suzie Leblanc :

Handel: Rinaldo, HWV 7a: Lascia ch'io pianga
J.S. Bach: Aus der Tiefe rufe ich, Herr, zu dir, BWV 131: Israel, hoffe auf den Herrn

--Andreas Scholl--I've particularly enjoyed his singing of Vivaldi's music:

Vivaldi: Nisi Dominus (Psalm 126) , R.608 - 4. "Cum dederit" (Andante)
Stabat Mater, RV. 621: Stabat Mater dolorosa

& others...

By the way, there is such a thing as a natural countertenor, that is, without resorting to castration--a once ghastly, gruesome practice enforced by the Catholic church, but it is rare... John Fleagle has been called a 'natural' countertenor for example, & Alfred Deller too. The British composer Michael Tippett once described the countertenor voice as "a male alto voice of exceptional range and facility".

 

[Macbeth]

I dislike countertenors because they mostly sing improperly. Falsetto is a false register where the cords aren't adducing, and thus has very little penetrative power. If they wish to "sing like a woman," then they should sing like a woman, i.e., developing their chest registration up to F4/F#4, and sometimes G4--mostly mezzos--dense "middle voice" (strong chest register and and the "whoop timbre" pulled up), from G to D5, and then head voice (less chest pull, stronger whoop timbre, but cords adduce unlike in falsetto), all the way to the top. Their voices would be much stronger, clearer, resonant, and penetrative, with the added "drawback" of sounding too much like a woman. I suspect that last part is why they compromise with the very wimpy "falsettone."

The problem is there is not such a thing as a standard countertenor voice. They vary too greatly.
I do share the idea already expressed here that, why would we listen to a "fabricated" voice in replacement of a mezzo for example, when the latter will generally sound much better and more pleasant? But then again, there is not such thing as a completely "natural" lyrical voice, all of them rely on technique. In the case of countertenors it takes a lot more technique, I guess. But, if an artist is good enough to keep you interested in what they are doing, if they can move you, why not listen to them? There are those who can sound beautiful enough so that you don't keep wishing for another "more natural" voice, like Jaroussky. These are rare. But I'd say I'm more interested in those that don't sound as if they were imitating female voices. There's nothing ugly either in Orlinski's sound, which is not feminine at all. A personal favorite of mine is Carlos Mena. Not a big name because he's not into the castrati firework circus. Sings early and religious music, as well as contemporary. I've listened to him live twice and it's a mesmerizing experience. He doesn't sound as if he was imitating a female voice, and you don't wish he were singing with his natural voice when listening. The idea that always comes to my mind is that it's something similar to listening to whale songs, fascinating and relaxing. That just about the sound itself, don't take my words out of context. The other thing that really surprised me when I saw him live was that he opens his mouth very little, yet his projection is excellent! very penetrating, but soft. Of course, not to sing Wagner, but one of those two occasions it was in a theater and I could hear him much better than other voices on the same stage, performing in the same work. No problem hearing him.

 

[Op.123]

The problem is there is not such a thing as a standard countertenor voice. They vary too greatly.
I do share the idea already expressed here that, why would we listen to a "fabricated" voice in replacement of a mezzo for example, when the latter will generally sound much better and more pleasant? But then again, there is not such thing as a completely "natural" lyrical voice, all of them rely on technique. In the case of countertenors it takes a lot more technique, I guess. But, if an artist is good enough to keep you interested in what they are doing, if they can move you, why not listen to them? There are those who can sound beautiful enough so that you don't keep wishing for another "more natural" voice, like Jaroussky. These are rare. But I'd say I'm more interested in those that don't sound as if they were imitating female voices. There's nothing ugly either in Orlinski's sound, which is not feminine at all. A personal favorite of mine is Carlos Mena. Not a big name because he's not into the castrati firework circus. Sings early and religious music, as well as contemporary. I've listened to him live twice and it's a mesmerizing experience. He doesn't sound as if he was imitating a female voice, and you don't wish he were singing with his natural voice when listening. The idea that always comes to my mind is that it's something similar to listening to whale songs, fascinating and relaxing. That just about the sound itself, don't take my words out of context. The other thing that really surprised me when I saw him live was that he opens his mouth very little, yet his projection is excellent! very penetrating, but soft. Of course, not to sing Wagner, but one of those two occasions it was in a theater and I could hear him much better than other voices on the same stage, performing in the same work. No problem hearing him.

I can live with the younger Paul Esswood on occasion.

 

[Macbeth]

I can live with the younger Paul Esswood on occasion.

I'm still to hear a version of "oh lord whose mercies numberless" that surpasses his.

 

[Woodduck]

I dislike countertenors because they mostly sing improperly. Falsetto is a false register where the cords aren't adducing, and thus has very little penetrative power. If they wish to "sing like a woman," then they should sing like a woman, i.e., developing their chest registration up to F4/F#4, and sometimes G4--mostly mezzos--dense "middle voice" (strong chest register and and the "whoop timbre" pulled up), from G to D5, and then head voice (less chest pull, stronger whoop timbre, but cords adduce unlike in falsetto), all the way to the top. Their voices would be much stronger, clearer, resonant, and penetrative, with the added "drawback" of sounding too much like a woman. I suspect that last part is why they compromise with the very wimpy "falsettone."

The suggestion that countertenors sing as they do in order to avoid sounding like women seems a little bizarre to me. The technique you describe as desirable looks good on paper. Does anyone develop his voice that way? If it's a real possibility, why wouldn't a singer do it for the sake of greater power? Who wouldn't want that?

 

[Op.123]

The suggestion that countertenors sing as they do in order to avoid sounding like women seems a little bizarre to me. The technique you describe as desirable looks good on paper. Does anyone develop his voice that way? If it's a real possibility, why wouldn't a singer do it for the sake of greater power? Who wouldn't want that?

Well, countertenors have only really come into prominence in recent years and if mezzos don’t bother with proper registration anymore it would make sense that countertenors don‘t either, not necessarily because they can’t.

 

[Woodduck]

Well, countertenors have only really come into prominence in recent years and if mezzos don’t bother with proper registration anymore it would make sense that countertenors don‘t either, not necessarily because they can’t.

Alfred Deller brought countertenors into prominence in early music in the 1960s. That's most of my lifetime. Granted, the now decades-long surge in early music performance has increased the number of countertenors and people's awareness of them.

Proper vocal technique is defined contextually, according to the kind of music it serves. If countertenors want to sing opera in large houses, they could reasonably want to acquire a different technique, if that's a possibility. I'm merely asking whether it is. I really don't know, and it would be helpful to have an example of "proper" technique as evidence.

 

[Macbeth]

In fact countertenors were around before emasculating children for the sake of art was a thing.

 

[Op.123]

In fact countertenors were around before emasculating children for the sake of art was a thing.

Do we have any records of earlier countertenors? I would assume they would use a more apt technique if they’ve come from an older school of singing.

 

[Op.123]

Alfred Deller brought countertenors into prominence in early music in the 1960s. That's most of my lifetime. Granted, the now decades-long surge in early music performance has increased the number of countertenors and people's awareness of them.

Proper vocal technique is defined contextually, according to the kind of music it serves. If countertenors want to sing opera in large houses, they could reasonably want to acquire a different technique, if that's a possibility. I'm merely asking whether it is. I really don't know, and it would be helpful to have an example of "proper" technique as evidence.

Countertenors, like all other singers nowadays, will sing in a large house regardless of whether they should or not. Whether a properly integrated technique is possible I don’t know. I would assume, if they have been around for centuries, then it should be.

 

[Macbeth]

Do we have any records of earlier countertenors? I would assume they would use a more apt technique if they’ve come from an older school of singing.

As Woodduck said, I believe Alfred Deller was the first notable example in record, no idea if there are more obscure, previous recordings. It would be interesting. Anyway, what I wanted to say is that contrary to what many people assume, countertenors did not appear as a replacement for the castrati, they largely pre-dated that heinous practice.