[Chilham]

Also interesting to think about what's happening in yesterday's Corelli op 5 on the one hand, and the Buxtehude organ music and Purcell viol music on the other.

The Purcell and Buxtehude are deep, in the sense of containing many simultaneous independent and significant musical strands. There is an inner life to this music, it's not just a surface of melody.

The Corelli is basically tunes and violin swagger with a bit of keyboard tinkle in the background.

I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.

Interesting observation. For myself, I've enjoyed both Corelli and Purcell.

Adding one more today:

Purcell: My Heart is Inditing

VOCES8, Les Inventions

 

[new but obsessed]

The Corelli is basically tunes and violin swagger with a bit of keyboard tinkle in the background.

I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.

Hi Mandryka. This is a very intriguing statement. I'm not sure what you mean though. I'm really mostly familiar with the Classical and Romantic periods, which would fall into the "deteriorated" eras. So I'm hoping you could explain a bit more what that deterioration is, where the music has deteriorated, and what I can find in post-war music that shows the recovery.

I'm guessing you're talking about the relative shallowness of tune-heavy, song-style music that's less intellectually or artistically adventurous than simply aesthetically pretty? This is what I think of many forgettable musical showtunes from mediocre musicals, for example, and I see some parallels in the song structures of older operas.

Or, in rock music, the formulaic use of seemingly "virtuosic" guitar playing, and long guitar solos, or the exaggerated drum solos of all the generic and boring hard rock and arena bands, which masks the fact that the music is lacking in the thing that makes the best music, even if that music is played with less bombastic virtuosity. CGI fireworks, but no real light.

Anyway, eager to read your response.

 

[Mandryka]

Hi Mandryka. This is a very intriguing statement. I'm not sure what you mean though. I'm really mostly familiar with the Classical and Romantic periods, which would fall into the "deteriorated" eras. So I'm hoping you could explain a bit more what that deterioration is, where the music has deteriorated, and what I can find in post-war music that shows the recovery.

I'm guessing you're talking about the relative shallowness of tune-heavy, song-style music that's less intellectually or artistically adventurous than simply aesthetically pretty? This is what I think of many forgettable musical showtunes from mediocre musicals, for example, and I see some parallels in the song structures of older operas.

Or, in rock music, the formulaic use of seemingly "virtuosic" guitar playing, and long guitar solos, or the exaggerated drum solos of all the generic and boring hard rock and arena bands, which masks the fact that the music is lacking in the thing that makes the best music, even if that music is played with less bombastic virtuosity. CGI fireworks, but no real light.

Anyway, eager to read your response.

I don't think this is the place for the discussion. I maybe shouldn't have commented on this thread about it.

 

[Chilham]

Level 1
No works

Level 2
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'

Level 3
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D

Level 4
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10
Corelli, Arcangelo: Violin Sonatas Op. 5 esp. No. 5, No. 9
Purcell, Henry: King Arthur

Level 5
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Membra Jesu Nostri BuxWV 75
Purcell, Henry: Hail! Bright Cecilia! Ode for St. Cecilia's Day
Purcell, Henry: Fairy Queen
Buxtehude, Dieterich: Preludes for Organ, BuxWV 136-154 esp. BuxWV 149
Purcell, Henry: My Heart is Inditing
Purcell, Henry: Fantasias for Viols
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Te Deum
Purcell, Henry: Ode to Queen Mary's Birthday "Come Ye Sons of Art Away"
Purcell, Henry: Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary
Corelli, Arcangelo: Trio Sonatas Op. 3 esp. No. 9
Purcell, Henry: Sonatas of III and IV Parts inc. IV Parts No. 9 "Golden Sonata"

Level 6
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Missa Salisburgensis
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ein Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott BuxWV 184
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Médée
Scarlatti, Alessandro: L'Arianna
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Battalia à 10
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Jubilate Domino
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Orphée Descendent aux Enfers
Stradella, Alessandro: San Giovanni Battista
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Abendmusiken
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Gott Fähret Auf Mit Jauchzen
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: La Reniement de St Pierre
Pachelbel, Johann: Acht Chorãle Preludes
Marais, Marin: Pièces en Trio
Purcell, Henry: Abdelazar

My listening today:

Corelli: Sonata de Chiesa a Tre Op. 3 No. 9

Pavlo Beznosiuk, The Avison Ensemble

Purcell: Trio Sonatas in IV Parts No. 9 "Golden Sonata"

Matthew Halls, Retrospect Trio

Biber: Missa Salisburgensis & Battalia à 10

Jordi Savall, Le Concert des Nations, La Capella Reial De Catalunya

Charpentier: Médée (Highlights)

William Christie, Bernard Delétré, François Bazola, Isabelle Desrochers, Jean-Claude Sarragosse, Jean-Yves Ravoux, Katalin Károlyi, Les Arts Florissants, Lorraine Hunt Lieberson, Marie-Noëlle De Callataÿ, Mark Padmore, Monique Zanetti, Noémi Rime, Sophie Daneman

Scarlatti: L'Arianna

Kate Lindsey, Arcangelo & Jonathan Cohen

 

[premont]

I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.

Highly provocative statement equally provocative as this:

Art in Classical Didn't Start till Romanticism

That's when composers really started expressing depth in their music rather than being commissioned to create music for an event.
That's my opinion, what do you think?

 

[hammeredklavier]

I think Corelli was at the beginning of the most significant deterioration in the history of classical music. Classical music doesn't really thoroughly recover until the middle of the 20th century.

How? Can you elaborate on this a bit more?

 

[marlow]

Unusual take on Mr Henry Purcell. What's not to like?

 

[Mandryka]

How? Can you elaborate on this a bit more?

Start another thread, out of respect to Chilham

 

[Mandryka]

Highly provocative statement equally provocative as this:

Premont, do you think the Biber sonatas are more contrapuntally interesting than the Corelli op 5?

Dantone says that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas, I don't know if that's in the score. And I guess the Biber rosary sonatas are church sonatas too. According to Dagmar Glüxam, in church sonatas God, devotion, suffering, pain, penance, and respectful restraint were central concepts. She doesn't provide a note to support that. Listening now to Dantone play the op 5 and I don't know if I'm hearing that, it's hard to say. I just don't know how you would avoid theatricality in this music.

Or is the idea of a church sonata just a formal one, alternating slow and fast movements?

(Chilham - if you don't want this here just say and I'll delete. But it may provide a bit of interesting context.)

 

[Chilham]

... (Chilham - if you don't want this here just say and I'll delete. But it may provide a bit of interesting context.)

Carry on. All good.

 

[premont]

Premont, do you think the Biber sonatas are more contrapuntally interesting than the Corelli op 5?

Neither Biber's violin sonatas nor Corelli's violin sonatas contain much real counterpoint, and essentially they are homophonic = melody (often very elaborated) and accompaniment (basso continuo). The keyboard player may in both cases add some perfunctory counterpoint, but this doesn't essentially change the music. And of course a baroque melody is meant to be played in way that it express the presumed affect of the piece. This leads to rhetorical - theatrical if you want - playing, just in the same way an actor on stage displays a character different from himself.

In renaissance music and in much baroque music the primary interest was in the counterpoint, which was designed to display the desired affects, and therefore the region of interest wasn't just the "melody" as such, but rather how is was used in the polyphonic web. This is also why instruments with excessive expressive powers were without great interest in the renaissance and baroque ages. They only needed to clarify the counterpoint. All this was more or less lost, when homophony took over in some baroque music and in classical and romantic music. This is why more expressive instruments were needed. One may call this decadence, but it is just another way of expression. Some are captivated by a melting melody, others prefer contrapuntal music. I belong to the latter.

 

[Mandryka]

Maybe it’s just that late 17th century Italianate sonatas for violin and keyboard weren’t particularly contrapuntal. I think there was more contrapuntal music being written, even in the Italian style - sonatas with three and more parts, canzoni da sonare etc.

There’s a question which hammeredklavier may be able to answer: how is the Italianate baroque two instrument sonata different from violin sonatas in classical style?

 

[Chilham]

Level 1
No works

Level 2
Purcell, Henry: Dido and Aeneas
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto Grosso in G Minor Op. 6 esp. No. 4, No. 8, 'Fatto per la notte di Natale'

Level 3
Pachelbel, Johann: Canon and Gigue in D

Level 4
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "Passacaglia"
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Glorious Mysteries"
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Joyful Mysteries"
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: The Rosary Sonatas "The Sorrowful Mysteries" esp. Sonata No. 10
Corelli, Arcangelo: Violin Sonatas Op. 5 esp. No. 5, No. 9
Purcell, Henry: King Arthur

Level 5
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Membra Jesu Nostri BuxWV 75
Purcell, Henry: Hail! Bright Cecilia! Ode for St. Cecilia's Day
Purcell, Henry: Fairy Queen
Buxtehude, Dieterich: Preludes for Organ, BuxWV 136-154 esp. BuxWV 149
Purcell, Henry: My Heart is Inditing
Purcell, Henry: Fantasias for Viols
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Te Deum
Purcell, Henry: Ode to Queen Mary's Birthday "Come Ye Sons of Art Away"
Purcell, Henry: Music for the Funeral of Queen Mary
Corelli, Arcangelo: Trio Sonatas Op. 3 esp. No. 9
Purcell, Henry: Sonatas of III and IV Parts inc. IV Parts No. 9 "Golden Sonata"

Level 6
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Missa Salisburgensis
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ein Feste Burg Ist Unser Gott BuxWV 184
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Médée
Scarlatti, Alessandro: L'Arianna
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Battalia à 10
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Jubilate Domino
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Orphée Descendent aux Enfers
Stradella, Alessandro: San Giovanni Battista
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Abendmusiken
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Gott Fähret Auf Mit Jauchzen
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: La Reniement de St Pierre
Pachelbel, Johann: Acht Chorãle Preludes
Marais, Marin: Pièces en Trio
Purcell, Henry: Abdelazar
Purcell, Henry: Chacone in G Minor for Four Strings
Fux, Johann Joseph: Constanza e Fortezza
Kuhnau, Johann: Biblische Historien esp. The Combat Between David and Goliath
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Trionfo dell'Onore

Level 7
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Harmonia Artificiosa-Ariosa
Pachelbel, Johann: Hexachordum Apollinis
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Messe de Minuet Pour Noël H.9
Marais, Marin: Pièces de Violes inc. Book 2 inc. "Couplets de Folies"
Stradella, Allessandro: San Giovanni Battista
Torelli, Giuseppe: Concerto Grosso Op. 8
Charpentier, Marc-Antoine: Le Malade Imaginaire
Purcell, Henry: Rejoice in the Lord Always "Bell Anthem"
Corelli, Arcangelo: Concerto for Oboe and Strings
Scarlatti, Alessandro: Il Mitridate Eupatone (Opera)
Jacquet de la Guerre, Elisabeth: Céphale et Procris
Biber, Heinrich Ignaz von: Sonate Violino Solo
Draghi, Antonio: Il Nodo Gordiano
Krieger, Adam: Arien
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Klag-Lied (Elegy)
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Chaconne in E minor, BuxWV 160
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BuxWV 196
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Ich dank dir, lieber Herre, BuxWV 194
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Singet dem Herrn ein neues Lied, BuxWV 98
Buxtehude, Dietrich: Alles, was ihr tut mit Worten oder Werken, BuxWV 4
Melani, Alessandro: L'Empio Punito
Stradella, Alessandro: Barcheggio II
Stradella, Alessandro: Sonata di Viole
Stradella, Alessandro: Susannah
Stradella, Alessandro: Vola, Vola in Atri Petti
Draghi, Giovanni: Psyche
Printz, Wolfgand: Historische Beschreibung der Edelen Sing-und-Kling-Kunst

I have a confession to make. I don't enjoy organ music. I possess a couple of albums that do tick a box for me (Olivier Latry's Bach to the Future and Latry again playing Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3 with Christoph Eschenbach and the Philadelphia Orchestra), but for the rest, it rarely sits well with me. As a result, I tend to listen to transcriptions and enjoyed this yesterday evening:

Buxtehude: Preludes for Organ (Transcr. A Stradal for Piano)

Meilin Ai

I'll explore today to see if I can find some of Buxtehude's organ music that I enjoy.

 

[Mandryka]

Hexachordum Apollinis is worth a listen, especially the aria sebaldina. The Kuhnau can be fun, and has some excellent musical moments in it I think. Marais is popular certainly - maybe start with the suite d’un goût étranger.

 

[Mandryka]

Premont, do you think the Biber sonatas are more contrapuntally interesting than the Corelli op 5?

Dantone says that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas, I don't know if that's in the score. And I guess the Biber rosary sonatas are church sonatas too. According to Dagmar Glüxam, in church sonatas God, devotion, suffering, pain, penance, and respectful restraint were central concepts. She doesn't provide a note to support that. Listening now to Dantone play the op 5 and I don't know if I'm hearing that, it's hard to say. I just don't know how you would avoid theatricality in this music.

Or is the idea of a church sonata just a formal one, alternating slow and fast movements?

(Chilham - if you don't want this here just say and I'll delete. But it may provide a bit of interesting context.)

I now wonder if it's just a mistake to say that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas. Listening now to Corelli op 1, which are explicitly designated sonate da chiesa, and it seems less theatrical -- as suited to liturgy as the Kuhnau biblical sonatas certainly -- Kuhnau himself probably influenced by Italian style.

Corelli Op 1 is very agreeable! Every bit as agreeable as the Biber Rosary sonatas, I would say -- same sort of thing! I couldn't put a cigarette paper between them.

 

[Chilham]

Hexachordum Apollinis is worth a listen, especially the aria sebaldina. The Kuhnau can be fun, and has some excellent musical moments in it I think. Marais is popular certainly - maybe start with the suite d'un goût étranger.

Thanks for the pointers. Really helpful

This is a little, "Curate's Egg", to my ear. Good in parts:

Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis

Edoardo Bellotti

This I'm enjoying very much:

Kuhnau: Musicalische Vorstellung Einiger Biblischer Historien

Claudio Colombo

 

[RICK RIEKERT]

I now wonder if it's just a mistake to say that Corelli op 5 are church sonatas. Listening now to Corelli op 1, which are explicitly designated sonate da chiesa, and it seems less theatrical -- as suited to liturgy as the Kuhnau biblical sonatas certainly -- Kuhnau himself probably influenced by Italian style.

Corelli Op 1 is very agreeable! Every bit as agreeable as the Biber Rosary sonatas, I would say -- same sort of thing! I couldn't put a cigarette paper between them.

Corelli's Op. 5 sonatas are a mixture in equal proportion of church and chamber styles, with a lot of convergence between the two, a common practice of the time. His sonatas are cast in much the same forms and styles as their predecessors. So-called church sonatas were played as much outside the church as inside it; the designation refers more to stylistic norms (the inclusion of strict fugal counterpoint in the 'church' style) than to location. I've read somewhere that Corelli, as a good Italian, introduced an element of lyricism into the church sonata found before only in vocal music.

Corelli did not use the term sonata da chiesa (church sonata) to describe his Op. 1 Sonatas. He referred to them as Sonate a trè. They weren't conceived for use in church although if we're to believe Johann Mattheson they could be used to accompany worship.

Enjoy the ciggy!

 

[Mandryka]

This I'm enjoying very much:

Kuhnau: Musicalische Vorstellung Einiger Biblischer Historien

Claudio Colombo

I'm glad to hear you are enjoying Claudio Colombo -- I think his style works in a satisfactory way in music from this period. And if you want to hear this music on a modern piano, I don't think there's anywhere else to go.

 

[Mandryka]

Thanks for the pointers. Really helpful

This is a little, "Curate's Egg", to my ear. Good in parts:

Pachelbel: Hexachordum Apollinis

Edoardo Bellotti

Yeah well I feel the same about Bellotti. Try this

 

[Mandryka]

More Kuhnau Bible sonatas on piano, this time from a famous romantic pianist on a real piano, I think Colombo plays an electric piano.